0:00:00 - Briar
It's just Grace stuff.
0:00:04 - Grace
Oh, do you have dogs barking?
0:00:05 - Briar
It was seen and you can hear the dogs and I can hear your backup noises and it's. That's exactly what we're doing here. Hello everyone, I am Briar Harvey. This is the Neurodiversity Media Network, and for my birthday, the fabulous Grace Edison gave me a podcast.
0:00:26 - Grace
So and we both have cats.
0:00:31 - Briar
So everyone is here on the same page. It's going to be a great time. We wanted to put together a show talking about mental health in a very real and honest way, and I think part of the problem here is that when people are talking about mental health, there's a lot of stigma. There's a lot of stigma, there's a lot of judgment and there is a lot of sentiment about what we could be doing better, and I think we just wanted to have a real conversation about what it actually feels like to have a broken brain.
0:01:19 - Grace
Well, and I think originally when we were talking about there's this? No, originally we've been talking about this for years at this point, but when we were talking about doing the podcast. A big thing for me is we've talked a lot about neurodiversity in terms of autism and ADHD, which will be part of this conversation. Of course, I can't not but that we don't really hear so much about some of the others, which is bipolar 1 and 2 and 3. And others oh, you're muted.
0:01:55 - Briar
Is there a 3 now?
0:01:57 - Grace
Yeah.
0:01:58 - Briar
Oh, that's new to me.
0:02:00 - Grace
Yes, there is a 3 now, apparently. Anyway, I just I know someone who was just recently diagnosed, so I also find that the stigma tends to be that it just becomes who you are, and that's always been a problem for me. That's always been really difficult because I don't know if I'm like, if I can say I'm not, maybe. Well, I'm not typical in any way, but I live a very successful life in many ways and yet I still struggle very much deeply, and more deeply at times, with having bipolar 2, which we can define if we want I have. So hypomania versus mania and I just want to be able to talk more about it. I think it hasn't been. It's not being talked about enough, although, taylor, I think Tomlinson, the stand-up comedian, talks about it a lot and I'm like you stole my bit, you stole my show. But I seriously appreciate it being something that's being brought up more, because we do hear a lot about. There are these certain ones that when I was diagnosed with ADHD, I told everybody I didn't care, I was proud, right.
0:03:25 - Briar
ADHD is cool. If you're an entrepreneur, it's your superpower.
0:03:30 - Grace
Right, Like I said to Breyer earlier, before we started recording that my dad, who passed away in 2014, had a friend who owned a really successful restaurant and on the card it said his name and then after his name it said ADHD like PhD, but ADHD, and I wanted to have ADHD so that I could put that on my card. And I mean, dreams really do come true, everybody, because here I am which granted.
Yeah, so I have ADHD and bipolar too, and I'm just much more likely to tell people that I have ADHD and they what? Is it? Co-morbidity or something Like these two things? They coexist and they battle each other at times, and I think one of the things that I do want to talk about today is just the fact that it was very confusing for a long time as to what the actual problem was Like. I've been through burnout, certainly, which is more well. It's a combination of manic episode or hypomanic episode, to be correct. Also, having ADHD and ADHD is an autism spectrum disorder, right? We're not sure?
0:04:47 - Briar
OK, kind of they're related, there's the in the DSM. The symptoms for ADHD and autism are actually not the same, but there's so much co-morbidity here that it's a really difficult thing to talk.
0:05:04 - Grace
Well, and I think for me it's still unclear whether it's ADHD or autism. Right Like there's and I'm at the point now where it doesn't matter much Like I like it's good to have some kind of a diagnosis and a title. I think it's helpful because not that it's necessary, but I think it's been helpful for me because I'm like, ok, I can name certain things, and the bipolar diagnosis was incredibly helpful. I recently had a bipolar relapse, which is really difficult. So I had a depressed episode that lasted just over seven months and it was the worst depressed episode that I've ever had. So anybody watch. That's what happened to Grace. She didn't leave bed for seven months, or did, but very infrequently. The bed still has a dent in it.
0:05:59 - Briar
Oh man, I know all about that dent.
0:06:04 - Grace
Yeah, it's quite the badge of honor. Look at my dent that I made.
0:06:10 - Briar
It's where the nest is.
0:06:12 - Grace
The nest. Oh my gosh, I'm going to have to send you an updated nest picture. People have always said that when I used to teach yoga, I used to have things all around me and they were like why do you have so many? Some other teacher once said you have too much stuff. And I'm like stuff, this is a nest. I have to have the blanket and the pillow and the speaker and my phone and my notebook and the candle and the whatever. I'm making a safe haven for myself. Then I'm going to get in it. What do you mean? Stuff, yeah.
0:06:48 - Briar
This is 100% a thing. So let's start there. How old were you when you were diagnosed by Polar?
0:06:59 - Grace
Well. So when I was first diagnosed with general clinical depression, I was 13, 13 or 14. So I've been on every single SSRI that you could possibly name I could go through them and it would be very impressive Like Prozac, paxil, apex or Selex, pristik, luvox, sertraline the list goes on. I've been on all of them and that went on until I was actually. The only time that I was like the best time of my life was when I was pregnant surprising with the twins.
And so that went on from the time I was about 13, 14 until I was 30, I'm 40. So we'll say it was like three, four years ago. So I was 37, 36, 37. By the time I got to the psychiatrist in Canada it takes an average of nine years to get properly diagnosed, just so everybody knows. And that's if you're actively pursuing it. So I was saying to someone the other day, like you have to maybe it was you you have to like when people say you have to advocate, like no, no, you have to claw your way Like nails dragging down cement to get a diagnosis, and when you do that, it's still going to take you potentially a decade to get properly diagnosed.
0:08:28 - Briar
I have a friend going through this with the NHS in the UK. It's very similar. It's certainly not better. Here in the States, the average is seven years to up to 15, depending on your various and assorted marginalizations.
0:08:49 - Grace
And before I forget, I want to, at some point in this conversation, talk about just the fact that, like, we have this idea of what someone with bipolar or whatever like you can name a bunch of different things but serious psychiatric disorders, what we think that they're like or they look like, and I just want to say like this is the face of someone with bipolar smart and cute, right, like and successful. And it wasn't until I didn't really realize and one of the reasons I wanted to talk about this too was I didn't really realize how incredible, incredible we are until I talked to my doctor the last she was, she was leaving, so I no longer have a doctor, which is awful, but she's, she was leaving, and her and I've had our battles over the years. And she just said to me, like I was crying when I tell people this, she said and I don't have tissue in my office, fuck. She said you're you're. She said I just have so much like admiration and respect for you because bipolar is one of the hardest psychiatric disorders to have.
And it was because I had said to her like I'm feeling better now and that's great, but it's also not great because it means that I have to make up for the last seven months and I was already trying to repair from the hype of manic episode, right? So it's like you're either fixing the shit storm that you created when you were manic but felt so good, or you're trying to get like not what's the word like recoup, you're trying to make up for the lost time from when you were making a dent in your bed, right? So it's like it's very it's a very challenging thing to to deal with and to live with.
0:10:40 - Briar
And I feel good now. So I got to be constantly on guard for the mania to mania to come back, because God knows that's going to happen.
0:10:50 - Grace
Yeah, yeah.
So the diagnosis I went on. I was on lithium and I was having at the time I. It was pretty good, I had probably the best two years, you know, aside from the year I was pregnant, which was still awful in its own way with the twins, but like wasn't, I wasn't having episodes, I. But then I got diagnosed with ADHD and that, through a wrench into everything, because we thought maybe that's what was going on, was like burnout cycles from ADHD. So I went on ADHD meds, stimulants and then, and then it was like I was having some side effects.
Like with a lot of the medication that you take for bipolar, you get the moon face right, like this puffy, this sort of puffy face, and I have a round chubby face anyway. So it was like, but it was hurting, like it was starting to like hurt my around my eyes. So I was taking. I said can I come off of that? So yes, okay, so I came off of that. But it was my family doctor who had taken me off and the psychiatrist actually later this year told me after I was referred back to her that when you're stabilized it's really dangerous. Like when you get to a point where you're stabilized, which I was.
It's really dangerous to come off medication and it might be okay for a year or so, which was literally the exact amount of time that it was seemingly okay, and then I had a manic episode and then I had like a fairly severe manic episode and then I had a very severe depressed episode and I couldn't get out of it. So I'm now on new medication and thank the Lord, like I am really grateful. And that's the other thing I want to say is that I went through that, that whole like I don't want to be on meds for such a long time and I just want to say they can, they can be life changing and I am no longer judging myself for that and I hope anybody listening to this that you know and trying I had to try a lot, I had to try a lot of different and that's really hard. So anybody going through that, I feel for you.
0:13:07 - Briar
You know and the med juggle and trying to figure out what's working there can be really difficult because you have to be very aware of what your symptoms are all of the time. You have to try and track that stuff. If you are not keeping good records, then one of the things and we probably have a whole episode about this, but one of the things that happens when you are bipolar is that in general, medical people stop trusting your evaluation of what's actually happening to you.
0:13:48 - Grace
And everybody in your life.
0:13:50 - Briar
And everybody in your life. Oh, you must be manic right now, or you're just depressed Like no. Actually, this is my lived experience right now. Believe me please.
0:14:02 - Grace
Oh yeah, that's huge. That's that, that's huge. And, and I mean and and like, and, for me, like, even not trusting myself, right, because it's in the hardest thing is like, when you're manic, it feels so frigging good that you, like, I don't want it to be that, that's what it is. So there's a massive amount of denial, even though the signs and the symptoms are all there. Right, you said something else and I had a thought. You said, um, like, stop the, stop trusting, and I can't remember. I tried really like, I tried really hard to keep a list of like, what are the, what are the telltale signs? And I do have a couple people in my life who, yeah, yeah, you know you're seeming like you're, you're manic right now. You know it's easier to hear when it's not in the moment when I'm trying to express myself. Right, it's like in a calm moment to be like lately I've noticed these things, so we've had to kind of build that in as part of the conversation, right, yeah?
0:15:13 - Briar
And what's difficult here that I think a lot of people who are not bipolar don't understand is that many of it feels good. There is no point of a manic experience that is not 100% enjoyable to me.
0:15:28 - Grace
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. All of it, even being mean, feels good, maybe, especially being mean oh especially being mean.
I think what I was going to say or what prompt I don't know what prompted this, but you're talking about like the people in your life not trying. You know, maintaining friendships is really hard, and that's in the whole other podcast episode. I think it's like maintaining relationships is really hard because and the people that are still in my life love both versions of me, they love Dr Jekyll and they love Mr Hyde, you know, and they've sort of learned to see through it and to know who's really in there. But I've found that like it's hard to explain and if I have to explain too much, or people are really like I know, but you weren't there, or I know, but it's like, yeah, I can't do any more than tell you what my lived experience is. And in the last depressed episode I was unable to function. Wasn't a choice? There was no choice. And then people telling me to go for a run, go for a walk, go for a walk.
0:16:48 - Briar
You just need some sunlight.
0:16:51 - Grace
I mean, there are definitely things that are helpful, for sure. Like I go to bed early, which is a bipolar thing, is like we'd stay up really late and we sleep in Until. When I, when I studied yoga and Ayurveda for however many years that was one of the things that I really kept. And I feel so much better when I go to bed early and I get up at the crack of dawn, like I've been getting up at 530 and I was not a morning person. Like let me tell you, this is hard. This is not like oh, yay, no, this is hard every single day, but I do it because it makes a difference. And yeah, walking is great, but when you're in the thick of it, the only thing that that is even within reach is like it like fucking showers are not within reach. It's like sleeping and maybe eating ketchup chips.
0:17:39 - Briar
Yeah, bipolar depression has a specific flavor to it that's difficult to describe to people, because it feels it's like it's like depression on steroids. Right, it's, it's. I'm not just depressed, I'm depressed and actively contemplating, killing myself most of the time.
0:18:05 - Grace
Straight up, yeah, but that's the other thing is, you can't really tell anybody because, like I have one friend that I can tell these things to, I mean outside of you. So there's like probably two and a half people that I can say hey, these are my thoughts today, this is where I'm at, I'm not going to be going to be doing anything, and not be concerned that I'm going to end up at the hospital, right, because like, what's that going to even do? First of all, I feel pretty safe most of the time, that like I can anchor myself in, like my family and my children and all of that stuff. But it gets pretty, it gets pretty dark.
0:18:46 - Briar
And what's the suicide rate for bipolar?
0:18:49 - Grace
It's really high.
0:18:51 - Briar
It's really high. Yeah.
0:18:53 - Grace
Yeah, it's really high. I think pretty much anytime I hear of someone that I knew or respected as like a celebrity or whatever. There was a yoga teacher who I absolutely adored in the lower mainland here in BC and he had bipolar and overdosed because he was just looking to relieve right, just looking to relieve the pain, and actually went to his doctor to get some opioids, I believe, and the doctor refused. So I mean, it is really hard. But I think you know, aside from all of those things, like, I definitely want to bring awareness to all of that, but it's also I wanted to talk about it to basically say like, and we still exist, you know, we stand, we rise and every morning we get up and we do the things, and that was really what my doctor was saying like, holy shit, look at your life, you know. Like, with the suicide rate being so high and or the addiction rate because that's another piece is like addicted to drugs, alcohol, spending money, gambling, whatever it is, is also really high.
0:20:01 - Briar
You forgot sex.
0:20:02 - Grace
Sex, yeah, yeah, and I think of all the people who are, who are not, who are undiagnosed right, who don't even who, and that's that's. That's, that's really where it's difficult, because there's just no. Like I think back and like I could not see the cycles, like you can't see the force for the trees. I just thought, I thought, when I was manic I was my actual self and then I was having depressed episodes.
0:20:27 - Briar
Right, because it feels so authentic and real and wonderful and I really can't emphasize that. That's really difficult to explain to people, because when I am manic I never want to be anything else.
0:20:45 - Grace
Oh yeah, no, I just grip onto that Like. I'm just like holding onto it so tightly, don't go anywhere, because, like the things that can be done and the amount of time that they can be done in and how, like my brain just like it's remember that movie limitless, with Brad Bradley Cooper, I think that's what it feels like, like you're on that limitless pill I'm not even kidding Like and I know that like it it's hard to understand and it's like, oh, you're just perceiving things that way, but like, no, I'm able to do shit that I had never, I've never been able to do in my life, and recall things and the way that I can communicate and speak and all of that. But it's extremely. It's extremely fast, it's extremely sharp. Like I get very aggressive, I think, and abrasive is a very you know, like it's rough, it's sharp, if you had to describe it in kind of like qualities.
0:21:47 - Briar
Yeah, yeah, and it's why the crash on the other end is so significant.
0:21:57 - Grace
Yeah, and so awful, like it's and so awful and so, but I mean, it is really. It is really incredible to be able to still like this is the thing it's like I don't even know how to describe this Like I don't want, I want to say what this is like and at the same time, I don't want pity and I don't want to be discounted. I want to be able to talk about it. I want to be able to say like, yeah, I have bipolar. So there will be times where this, you know this will happen or that will happen, and I want to be able to disclose those things Like I've had to. I've talked about it on Facebook and on most people. Actually, I got a funny story to tell you.
There was Oliver has a friend who, sort of it, was a new friend this year and he they were talking and I had met his mom at some point, we had gone out for a mutual friend's birthday and and he said, oh yeah, like my mom knows your mom and and he said, but the kid, the other kid said but you know, I think they drifted apart and they're not really friends anymore, and which isn't even true. And Oliver said, yeah, my mom has bipolar. I mean like look, he's not wrong. Like it was not an inappropriate, you know, response.
However, I did have to explain to him, like the there's a time and a place and like actually we weren't really close friends or wasn't like we had gone out together and we knew each other and we say hi to each other and all of that, but there wasn't, you know, wasn't like we were getting together on the regular. So it was. But it was interesting to me that he's obviously heard me talk about how it has an effect on friendships, right and relationships. And then I'm there and then I'm not. And I totally understand, like I don't hold it against anyone who can't deal with it, like they shouldn't. If they don't want to, they shouldn't have to, you know right.
0:23:51 - Briar
I'm okay with that, but I don't have the expectation of support or like long lasting friendships because, frankly, I'm not that up to the task.
0:24:06 - Grace
Yeah, and I'm not asking people to like to deal with it or saying like, well, this is just the way that I am. Like, I'm basically saying like this is this is the way that I am, and I don't expect you to have to deal with it. I mean, but if you want to, great, and if I want to, you know, put up with your shit, then great, because we all have shit. Just because you're not bipolar doesn't mean you don't have shit.
0:24:31 - Briar
Oh no everybody, you got shit, but the flavor of this shit pile is real distinct.
0:24:40 - Grace
It's real distinct. Yeah, thank you for staring Sam here. Okay, so if you give me that Rubio script, did I want you to comment on that? Were you guys watching?
Really helpful for me was like very, very much like pursuing a diagnosis like pursuing a diagnosis, if that's possible to do that and to stay on them and to document and to chart sort of like. I think one of the most helpful things that I've done is like just keeping a loose journal of like today felt like this this has been going, so I know how long things have been going on for when it started and what it felt like, what the symptoms are, even physically, how I feel in my body because my nervous system was a wreck, and so like just being able to keep those notes. I would also say like there are certain habits that are going to be great and do start doing them when you feel good and keep up with them, and sometimes that's really hard. Regardless, the little things matter a lot, like drinking enough water and like getting in the bath hub and, you know, trying to have a shower at least once a month Just kidding and having like that support system, like it's so nice to have Briar to talk to and that you understand, and even my friends that don't have it but that really try to just hold space and understand.
And I will say, like, for me anyway, I can't really the supplements weren't cut in it and I can't smoke weed. Well, I might be able to smoke weed again, I feel like, but I haven't been able to. Like, both THC and CBD were just like a no go for me and obviously alcohol is not an answer, or I found that it wasn't an answer for me. So medication has been like a godsend and so those things are all super helpful and I think also just knowing a lot about it like Reddit so helpful. You know a grateful for Reddit because it was like even when it came to medication and just being able to have conversations with people who understood and could name things, yeah, it's a big deal.
0:26:50 - Briar
And again, because I say people, but mostly I mean medical people are so dismissive of our lived experience that when talking about it, it's really nice to get validation from other people who have been there and gone through that as a no, you're not crazy, You're just bipolar.
0:27:16 - Grace
Yeah, yeah, which makes you feel pretty fucking crazy.
0:27:20 - Briar
All the time.
0:27:21 - Grace
Yeah, and it's been, and it's like it's also very hard. It's been hard on my family, right, it's been really hard on my family. And so the other thing too is I don't even know how I want to say this, but I think like it can be very confusing as to what's going on and like I know now for sure that I have bipolar and it's not just. It's not just. It's not the ADHD or potentially autism or burnout, that's what it is. And I think that's. The other thing is we don't want it to be that, and even other people don't want it to be that, because it's such a great, it seems so grave, but I think coming to terms with it is it like sucks, but it's way better on the other side than trying to brush it off as something else. Does that make sense?
0:28:15 - Briar
100%, and I think part of the problem is that the treatment for bipolar is so all over the map. I like lithium is the standard, but if lithium doesn't work for you or if lithium causes liver damage, which it does for most of us at some point in time, I can't ever take lithium again. I took it for enough to get the liver damage, and now that one's gone. So what's left to us, mad wise, is a mixed bag of anti convulsions, really serious drugs with really serious side effects.
0:29:01 - Grace
Yep, yep, for sure, and I'm on like a cocktail that is working really well so far, and I did have to get through some side effects and that was, for sure, difficult and frustrating, but that's why I say it. It's for me anyway, at this point it was worth the trial and error to get to where I am now, because it was I mean I wasn't going to be able to continue to live the way that I was living. Like the last depressed episode was like, if I ever have to go through that again in my life, I fear for my life. It was that severe and it's really, I mean.
We haven't even mentioned work Right, and I think, while being self employed is a huge bonus because we can choose to ramp up and you know, and I've had that, I've had the ability to do that of saying, like you know, I'm going to take on more clients or more work, or I'm going to reduce, or I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do that, like, and I've got, you know, a lot of versatility in my skills. Again, I'm saying this because it's like people with bipolar are not fucking dumb, they're not idiots, like we're very, very, very smart people. So we have a massive amount of talent and skills, but it's difficult to be self employed because there is no disability time off, paid leave, whatever Right.
0:30:28 - Briar
Well, and that's assuming you have a job at all, because unemployment and underemployment for bipolar folk is almost as high as it is for autistic people. We don't. We don't hold down jobs because we're great until we go off the deep end and then you're not going to see us for six months.
0:30:50 - Grace
Yeah, well, and this is where I started to learn that like short term engagements right, or like short, like we'll renew after this much time or we'll renew after this much time, and like trying to trying for me was like trying to get through with the people that I really trusted and that's really hard to find and I and I understand that, but for sure guaranteed there's somebody watching this going like well, I was kind of thinking about hiring grace to do something and like maybe and that's the part that I'm really talking about it's like the way that we don't have awareness of it. It does not mean that I'm not that and even when I'm depressed, I'm going to do a good job. It's just way harder for me. It's taken everything I've got Right.
0:31:35 - Briar
But the implicit judgment that people have about bipolar is absolutely inescapable.
0:31:42 - Grace
Yeah, I would honestly make it my life's mission to talk about this, Like I feel that because I and I've said this, you and I've talked about this before, but it's, I think, more common than we know, because it's so hard to get diagnosed. It's so hard to get diagnosed and it's misdiagnosed often because they're seeing just that like this is what my doctor said, or I don't know. Someone said this it's hard to get diagnosed because the only time that you go into the doctors when you're depressed, you ain't going in there. When you're manic, you feel fucking great. And I don't even remember who. I think it was my therapist, who was like you might be bipolar, because she'd seen me for six years and she was like okay, and she would say to me like well, you're very, hmm, you know very. She was the one that was like you're very sharp today, Not sharp as in smart, but like pointy, Like you're, and I'd be like, yeah, I don't care.
0:32:43 - Briar
I was diagnosed at 16 and I think I, in this way, got lucky. Got lucky because I was manic at the time and my parents had taken me in and it took this doctor exactly 10 minutes to have a conversation with me and go. Oh yeah, this is classic mania.
0:33:05 - Grace
Really.
0:33:11 - Briar
But most people don't get that because media feels good, I'm happy, I'm doing things, I'm living my life. I was not and in I'm type one, so in true classic mania, I wasn't sleeping. I think, I think we're eating or eating, and I think I had been up for almost 72 hours when I spoke to the psych the first time.
0:33:42 - Grace
Oh, my God oh yeah, this isn't normal.
0:33:46 - Briar
You're not supposed to be doing this. I'm like, but why? It feels fantastic.
0:33:51 - Grace
Yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, what's funny is that the mania feels good to us. It feels terrible to the people around us. The depression feels terrible to us but feels good to the people around us to some degree. Like, I just find that my family would probably much prefer a depressed version of me over manic version of me, because I'm cuddly and I'm slower and I'm, you know, kind of and I'm not talking a mile a minute and coming up with 9 million ideas and, you know, buying all the shit from Amazon. You know there's like very telltale signs, but at least I still love the Funko Pops.
0:34:31 - Briar
I was about to say. There was a moment there where people were legitimately concerned about your Funko Pop budget.
0:34:40 - Grace
Yeah, and I mean true, like valid, but sometimes the things we do when we're manic end up being actual sources of joy, and they are still very much a source of joy. I just now can only buy one, like every few months. So, yeah, I think that it's just a conversation. Like I know, this conversation has a lot of elements to it, things that we've said we'd like to talk more about, like the friendship thing and the work thing, and we're getting diagnosed and all the rest of it, but I just want to have a conversation, because I was very much feeling like it was left out of the conversation.
And we say we talk about mental health issues, but do we though? Do we we talk about anxiety and depression? But really, how far into that do we go? And I find that, for me too, not just what I see is that we talk about things after the fact. So it's not really that I'm not. I mean, I did try, because I had a commitment to saying like I'm struggling, I'm in a very bad, depressed episode, but the problem is again, I just don't want the pity, I would just want people, I would just want the awareness, and I just want people to know, and I just want to be seen and heard and attempted to, maybe even to be understood, and I also want other people to feel seen and heard through me.
0:36:11 - Briar
Because there are good mental illnesses and there are bad ones.
0:36:16 - Grace
Oh yeah.
0:36:17 - Briar
Bipolar is definitely a bad one.
0:36:20 - Grace
Yeah, it's a bad one and it's like you are ticking time bomb of sorts, like you know, watch out, don't get too close, you know. But I really do appreciate, like I said, people like Taylor Tomlinson who are talking about it and it's in a funny way and that counts. But I still think that we need to, as regular old schmucks just talking about this kind of thing, because I've had people write to me, which I love, and say would you have a conversation with my kid or you give me hope that my kid, who really struggles with whatever, is going to be OK. And I'm like you think I'm OK. Thank you so much, but I am OK.
That's the thing that, underneath it all, although I'm not OK at all, I'm really OK, I'm doing really well and I think it's this coexistence of things being absolutely horrible and horribly excruciating but also, at the same time, persevering and getting through. And I do maintain friendships. I have a friend that I have, we've been friends and we talk almost every day since I was in grade seven, so I can fucking maintain friendships with the right people. And just because I don't talk to somebody for a while, that doesn't mean anything and I think we need to really start to normalize this. That has nothing to do with how much, and I think it's also. Maybe we would talk more if this kind of topic was comfortable too. Are you making the space comfortable? I'm sure shit making the space comfortable. People can tell me anything. I'm not going to be shocked Deliberately. I'm not going to be shocked.
0:38:20 - Briar
Deliberately cultivating that space is very, very difficult and it is very hard for people to sit with the discomfort of these types of conversations.
0:38:36 - Grace
Yeah and yes and you miss, like you know and being fearful of having these conversations, you miss a whole lot of awesomeness Because, to be perfectly honest, the people I know with bipolar, or potentially with bipolar, are incredible fucking people. They really are. Because we have persevered, we have been through some shit, we really understand the gamut of being human, Like if human the spectrum and like the of human emotion and being at dark nights of the soul, Like I remember the first time I saw the emotion wheel and I was like, can I be feeling all of these things at once?
0:39:22 - Briar
Because that's the experience for us sometimes.
0:39:29 - Grace
Yeah, yeah, I just I want like go back to the beginning of the conversation. Like I want to be able to be like hi, I'm Grace, I have bipolar. I do want to disclose it. I do want to be able to say because I want people to have an example of someone they know that's like actually you know not actually, but that's doing well and that's open about it Like I don't want it to be. Yeah, I don't want it to be so stigmatized. It's so fucking stigmatized and, like I said, I'm so much more likely to be like I have ADHD. I would be more likely to say like I'm on the autism spectrum, which isn't that wild.
0:40:10 - Briar
No, there are certainly. And having all three, let me tell you the degrees at which we get faces down the ladder is, I mean, it's almost universal. Adhd, that's fine. Autism yeah, that's a little squeaky. Bipolar yeah.
0:40:32 - Grace
Yeah, but again like I think, it's that we have and I don't know because I'm only 40, so I don't know what it was like to, you know, have a lobotomy or whatever. But like back in the day, these things were like death sentences, pretty much right Like the plague, and so, yeah, like you're again, you're not going to catch it from knowing me or talking to me about it. I'm not going to make you depressed because I'm depressed like or manic or whatever it is.
0:41:04 - Briar
But I have friends that still have gone through electroshock therapy, like oh, yeah, oh my. God, this is still considered a valid treatment. We're frying people's brains in the name of something I don't know what.
0:41:28 - Grace
Yeah, and I don't know what I want to say exactly. I guess I've said this already, but, like I go back to, I really, really, really was against medication for the longest time and just rebuked all Western medicine for a long time too. And I'm at a point now where I'm like I will be on medication for the rest of my life. So long as it helps, so long as it's helping, I'm on it Because it's been. You've seen it. I think you've witnessed all the stages of this.
0:42:12 - Briar
I think at this point, Well, I mean, we have been friends at this point in time, almost four years now. I think. We've started working together shortly after your diagnosis, and so it's been a journey for you. For me it's one. I've been on a whole lot longer, and I've gone through all of the meds, and most of them don't work. So I am back to smoking weed. Microdosing mushrooms.
0:42:45 - Grace
Which is great. Didn't work for me but like I know that, I know how many people it has worked for that and ketamine therapy.
0:42:53 - Briar
Ketamine is also particularly effective for bipolar, and we're starting to have conversations about how this works, but it's still pretty French.
0:43:04 - Grace
Yeah, I just think again. I hope that this spurs new, just more conversation. Or people saying even if you just tell me, getting comfortable telling one person Because we can have a club, it can be cool, we can get jackets, whatever.
0:43:26 - Briar
Grace has been talking about a club with jackets for years now, so give her a reason.
0:43:31 - Grace
Yeah, I need to barely like three of us and I'll get jackets, Like we can have a club with three. That counts, yeah. But I think that there are more. It's not just bipolar, there's all kinds. There's schizophrenia, there's BPD, there's right like the list goes on that we've really like oh, oh, did you know? So-and-so is oh, but like the medication that I'm on is also for schizophrenia, so like it ain't that far apart.
0:44:04 - Briar
I read a study fairly recently that indicated to that borderline personality diagnoses have been going down, since autism diagnoses have gone up, especially in women. So clearly there is some overlap there too between what the symptoms actually are and how they manifest in people, and this isn't easy. Diagnosing mental health issues in most cases involves verbal test batteries, but there's not a. You can't go step into an EKG machine and go oh clearly you're bipolar.
0:44:56 - Grace
Yeah, no, no. And it like, yeah, you have to go through quite some, it has to go on for quite some time, because, like, what do they commonly say? It's sort of nine month cycles and maybe right, well, that was. The other thing is like seasonal affective disorder, right, was the diagnosis. For a while, like they were sort of like OK, so it's this, then it's that, then it's this. And the hard part too is that, like the medication that they're giving you for generalized anxiety or for for depression SSRIs that shit not only doesn't work but it makes you feel worse because it's not a serotonin issue, so like, and that's right, nobody's got serotonin.
0:45:44 - Briar
Right, right, this one's this one's been coming out recently in the ways in which serotonin and depression are related has been more or less debunked. We've based an entire class of drugs on serotonin and the lack thereof is the cause of your depression, and it turns out oh, maybe it's not.
0:46:09 - Grace
Yeah.
Mm-hmm, yeah, and we are the guinea pigs for sure, and I think we haven't focused. I mean, if we're gonna get into some of this like and I have the my dopamine necklace because I'm just like we haven't focused enough on Dopamine, like we don't we're not talking enough enough about dopamine or noradrenaline or Whatever like we're just we've been so focused on serotonin and melatonin or what's the oxytocin. But it's like what about the ones that actually help with the functioning, like the legit fucking motivation and desire and that which is the root of like you need those things to function to get the things done. If you don't give a fuck and pain People who are in pain. It's like when do you have some dopamine, dude? Would you like some?
0:47:00 - Briar
and the correlation between pain and mental health issues Cannot be overstated here. There is a high relationship. I think I read a Study this has been a few years ago now and it was not a large sample size but the houseless people in Los Angeles. They did a mental health battery at one point in time and 90 some odd percent of them had mental health issues. 45% of them were bipolar. So the lack of functioning is really an important part of this question.
0:47:50 - Grace
Mm-hmm. Yeah, well and again, like these are the kinds of things that also cause a misdiagnosis, right, like fibromyalgia, adhd, burnout, and they're all closely related. But it's like what's actually, what actually is the thing and what are the same? What's the thing and what are the symptoms? Because it's almost like a Wheel that you can turn and click right, like what's at the top. So like is the fibromyalgia causing depression and you know whatever? Or is it turn it again? Is it the depression that's causing the pain and the and the right and the Ability, the lack of ability to function?
So it's like that's why I say keeping a journal of some sort, being able to track what's going on and when and for how long, because those cycles are telling, and having some kind of a mental health problem and having somebody else, like I mean somebody that you trust. I would say that, obviously, someone who lives with you is a great choice, but, like you have to have a pretty like good heart to heart and trust that person enough to not use it against you, because that was really hard for a long time and I had to make that really clear. Like this doesn't get used against me. It's you're either helping or You're sympathizing, but it's not a write-off for how I'm feeling, like when I'm expressing an emotion or I'm upset about something and you can't defer blame because I've said something to you about your behavior, that that must automatically mean oh well, you're overreacting.
0:49:30 - Briar
And and these are real conversations that we have to have- Mm-hmm.
0:49:34 - Grace
Yeah, yeah, and it just. And if you do think that somebody might be bipolar, do not say it in a moment where they're expressing an emotion or they're upset, because I heard somebody say that to me the other day that they were like getting really frustrated because every time they were upset with something, their family was like oh, this has got to be because you're and they haven't been diagnosed or anything. They're just making an assumption and writing off the emotions. So like that's a really tricky thing too, like that's, that's just shitty shady well and Socially, culturally.
0:50:09 - Briar
We are in an era where armchair diagnoses are at an all-time high, which is unfortunate when we recognize how difficult it is to get an actual Psychiatric diagnosis in the first place.
0:50:23 - Grace
I know it's hard because on the one hand, you know stuff like tick-tock, like it's it's great because it's building awareness, right, like there's this guy who is Narcissist, diagnosed narcissist, and he has this channel, and like it's helpful. But at the same time it's also got every Tom Dick and Harry thinking that they're supposed to is a narcissist because there's some seemingly Comparable or similar shit going on.
0:50:48 - Briar
If I had a dollar for every time I'd seen narcissism diagnosed on the internet, we would not be here, no yeah.
0:51:01 - Grace
So, and I get like when I say, you know, fight for diagnosis, and people might roll their eyes because it like but I'm. That's why I'm using the word fight, because it is really hard. First of all, there's a lack of doctors in Canada for sure. I don't know about the US, but like we don't have Everywhere.
0:51:15 - Briar
Everywhere.
0:51:17 - Grace
And so this board everywhere.
Yeah, and and trying to get a therapist and or a psychologist, trying to get into the psychiatrist, like you have to have been through. You can't just go in and say like I think I have bipolar. They're going to be like, okay, well, let's try these things. And the psychiatrist was extremely helpful. Um, I wish I'd listened to her sooner, to be honest, because she had given me better, like she had Suggested a medic a medication that I'm on now, like years ago, and I didn't want to take it because I was fearful of it, and now it's the best thing that I've taken to date. Um, so it it does become something where you kind of have to keep going and keep going, and when you don't feel well, that's hard to do because you're already fighting for your life just to get up in the morning.
0:52:10 - Briar
Well and this is something I say a lot we are asking people who are least capable of advocating for themselves to advocate for themselves for treatment that is difficult to get. It is really. It's such a painful cycle.
0:52:32 - Grace
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, um, I, I think from this like I just want I want people to be more aware, who, who don't have, who don't experience this, to maybe sort through some of their judgments or or miskins, like misconceptions or things that they've you know, and, at the same time, like simultaneously being more sympathetic or empathetic or whatever towards people who live with really serious mental health issues and diagnoses, um, but also not judging. Like understanding and being sympathetic is does not mean judging people and writing them off, right, and so we're still Like and I'll go back to what I said at the beginning like everybody has their shit. Just because you aren't diagnosed with a serious Psychiatric disorder doesn't mean that you're a perfect or you're a good person all around. You got your shit that people have to deal with too right. So same shit, different pile, shit still thinks.
0:53:36 - Briar
So I've already made a list here of things that we'll be covering in the next few episodes. But, folks, if you have questions, if you have suggestions, please drop those in the chat. We'll add them to the list. What do you want to leave us with today, grace?
0:53:54 - Grace
I wish I had a better version of happy birthday or, and I would sing it. But I can. I can sing it like really sultry, like Happy birthday to you. I can't believe I'm doing this. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear Briar. I don't know I have to wiggle like this. Happy birthday to.
0:54:26 - Briar
And I'm just, you know, imagining you standing over steam then in a wide dress. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
0:54:35 - Grace
If anybody just caught the end of this, then you won the lottery today. All right, I love you, thank you. Thanks for having this conversation. I know it's not a perfect conversation, but we're having it.
0:54:50 - Briar
We're having it and we'll be back with more. Y'all Thanks for being here. This is the neurodiversity media network. If you are not already subscribed, you can do that at neurodiversitymedia networkcom. It's still july and we are 20 off right now. There will be um. One of the things that I want to add for this episode. For subscribers, I have a list of really helpful journaling apps that I will throw in that you can use. That are emotional trackers that are quick and easy. If writing the thing down for you isn't going to work, here's how you can keep track of your emotional state on a daily basis. So I will be throwing that stuff in and we will see you all next time. Thank you, have an amazing day, y'all Bye.
Transcribed by https://podium.page
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