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Hello, and welcome, everyone. We are live. I still have this piece of hair. It's not going away. It's just it's gonna bother me all day. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine.
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I am Briar Harvey. This is the neurodiversity media network where we talk about both the little things and the big things. Y'all, I am so excited for this show. This one has been on my mind since I first started the network. And it took some finagling, and I had to find the right person for it. And now, here we are. So welcome to our premier episode of Fixwork.
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And we are gonna be talking about what work is, what's wrong with work, and how we fix it. Like, don't overcomplicate things here. Let's start from the top Joa please introduce yourself. Tell us why you're here and why fixing work matters to you.
Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Briar. I'm so excited to be here and to talk about this. I could talk about this all day long, and I do. I'm lucky to do it for work. I am a career strategist. I have my own company car launch careers, and I help people figure out what it is that they wanna do for work and how to do it in a way that's going to check the boxes for them, which can look a lot of different ways. Offer tailored services that help people really delve into what it is that they wanna do, what it is that they're great at, and how they're gonna be compensated for it. Which looks a lot of different ways for a lot of different people. So I'm very excited to be talking about this with you. I'm excited about the little series that we've got going on, and today is gonna be really a rich conversation, I'm sure. Yeah. I'm so psyched. Okay. So let's start at the top. What is work? Yes. Yes, work is broadly speaking, tasks that you do and are compensated for. I think that there's a lot of conversation that goes on about the intersection of things that you're great at sort of instinctually, intuitively, and how to get paid for those things to make it even better.
0:02:32
But I have background in psychology. I'm a trained therapist. I love psychology. I love how people's brains work. And so I'm also very interested in things like intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. So the the idea is that, you know, what we want to do comes from a motivated place, but there are sort of internal rewards that we can get for doing those things. There are internal rewards for doing those things. And I'm particularly interested at what happens to people about five, ten, twelve years into a career where they've been going through various steps, having different experiences, not necessarily with the strategy in mind, but they may have hit some sort of plateau or some sort of feeling that it's not right anymore. And so I think people's motivation is a huge factor that comes into that. That's that's really interesting.
0:03:23
And And then the compensation piece, which I'm particularly interested in coming from an anti capitalist framework because compensation is not equitable for all the things that get done in the umbrella of work. Correct. So and and definitely when we look at the world, not just within the United States, which which is where I'm located, which is where you're located, but compensation across the globe varies incredibly, you know, it's it's a vast, vast span of what we're looking at here. So I'm really interested in what kinds of systems exist outside of the United States, what we can learn from it, what we can incorporate into our own systems, really coming up with with with better practices, with ways to fix work. So that presupposes work needs to be fixed. And you and I definitely agree that work needs to be fixed. But let's talk about some of the ways that it's broken. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, she would just take turns going back and forth. Yeah. Maybe we can wrap and fire this one Yeah. Alright. You start, and I'll we'll just go back and forth. We'll see how many ways we could get back there. Remote or the lack thereof of remote and asynchronous work. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
0:04:56
Transparency around compensation within organizations and across industries transparency about job descriptions What's my job? What's your job? Who does what? And what happens if there is overlap or an empty void? Mhmm. Absolutely. How about accommodations and who regulates them? Here's another one on accommodations. Having to ask for them and then providing documentation that I need them in the first place. Mhmm. Mhmm. How about who oversees any policy and whether it's implemented properly or not. Hiring firing, who does it, who's responsible for it, how we communicate about it, Mhmm.
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Profits over people. Oh. Lack of transparency around the businesses financials, not just an employees, but what the business is making, how it's making money, who that money is going to? Yes. Yeah. Who benefits from from the systems of work? There it is. But that comes down too. Quimball. No. Who benefits? Yeah. That's what we wanna know. Mhmm.
0:06:45
And in most cases, I think you and I would agree, that work benefits the shareholders and very rarely the stakeholders. Interesting. Interesting. Yes. Yes. It benefits people who somehow have the least invest it in a certain sense. I know that shareholders may have a monetary investment, but again, it's that profit over people. Right? They're not showing up nine to five or eight to six or whatever got awful hours. It might be to do the work at hand. But their their investment is prioritized over people who are literally investing their time, their bodies, their creativity, their ideas, their efforts, all of the things. Mhmm. Oh, I lost your volume. Oh, it's me. It's always me. That's okay. It's fun. And it's incumbent upon the stakeholders to produce for the shareholders. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah. That production. Right? That's that's sort of the root of capitalism is that it's dependent on production, production, production, production. And if production ceases, then the whole system breaks down. So, and, literally, we were talking about this before we came on.
0:08:28
I read an article about autonomous agents, and I'll link it in the show notes. It's the latest development of AI And what it's gonna do y'all is you're gonna be able to train an autonomous agent to perform tasks for you. Mhmm. Need to hire a social media manager now you can just train an autonomous agent and you give it directives and it's going to go out and do those things for you. The article said that within the next five years, ninety five percent of people will actually be working for autonomous agents. And I don't think that we can really understate the ways in which work right now is changing so fast. Mhmm. We'll we'll record this. It's the end of April. We will be out of dates, two weeks from now. Mhmm. We record our next episode.
0:09:41
There will have been innovations in tech and the way work happens because that's how fast it's happening right now. How do we prepare for that? Yeah. I wish I knew the answer to that. I feel like I probably would be one of the shareholders. So if I if I cracked that code, Right? But I think that, you know, part of it is that it's this funny duality that we live with of the innovations are going so fast, but the systems are so antiquated. Right? And that mismatch, I think, is where a lot of the route points are in what we're seeing. And I think that part of the answer to your question is, we figure out ways of bringing the systems more current. And, yes, you know, content will be outdated quickly. But we can we can learn from what's around us, from what other people are doing, and we can work on developing systems that are gonna iterate and pivot better, more accurately, faster, to accommodate the needs of the people who are part of these systems.
0:10:53
I have another show y'all with Faith Clark, who is brilliant. We're talking about work culture, design, And a lot of this is gonna be instrumental in the things we're talking about here because structurally, foundationally, The way that we fix work isn't about the tech. It's not about the tools it's about the systems in which we are working with and for people. Yes. Yes. So how do we identify what the stress points are in that system and how to fix it. Mhmm. Mhmm.
0:11:44
Well, it has to do with changing a mindset away from profits over people to people over profits. And it's not even that binary, really. It's just prioritizing people. I see Will Sullivan joined us here, and he and I have been doing LinkedIn audio lives each month about kindness, and and Will talks a lot about kindness and leadership. And I think that that whole framework comes from a perspective of putting people first understanding that as a leader within these systems, that you have to prioritize people, including yourself, you are also a person unless you're an autonomous agent, in which case you're not. That gets blurry quick. Right? Right? But it's but prioritizing the people within the system is a huge first step.
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And and that comes from looking at kindness, it look comes from looking at empathy, it comes from looking at these sort of human connection points which sounds in some ways very, like, you know, emotionally oriented and not really business oriented, but I would argue that there has to be some overlap. There has to be a weaving together of those in order for us to develop really resilient systems. And the problem is in the ways that we dehumanize rather than emphasizing human needs as we develop these systems. So how do we kind of check on those things? What are we looking at when it comes to identifying the brakes. Mhmm. You know, I I had a conversation about this.
0:13:49
Relatively recently within the past couple of weeks about taking inventory, doing an internal inventory of how things are going and developing reflective practices about how to do that so that that way you're kind of preempting the brakes, you're finding the weak spots before it gets to the breaking point. And, you know, this is a practice that as individuals, we can all cultivate which helps prevent against burnout, which helps build resiliency, which helps us really be strategic about what's gonna work well for us. And I think that I'm a big fan of the idea of parallel structure. So I think that, you know, we can think of it almost as like the individual at the center and the systems built up in rings around that individual. And the parallel process part of this is that what the individual does is felt within the rings. Right? So it's a matter in some ways of starting at the individual and then building our way outward to make sure that it gets impacted further and further from our actual individual cells into the systems.
0:15:02
There are so many places my mind want to take this. And I think where I wanna go with it is that DEI diversity equity and inclusion as a branch of corporate structure has taken a hit. It is one of the biggest layoffs that we've seen in recent tech layoffs. And we're also very aware that there's some real disparity here about who is, our d e I leadership because in terms of both race and gender, there is less equity than one could hope for. Right. So What I see then is that we're aware of the things that we should be doing We pay lip service to them. Mhmm. We are not actually fixing any of these problems. No. No. And the lip service is a huge problem. I think to a certain extent, DEI got systemically impacted by that last one in, first one out effect that that people often see in in layoffs at an individual level. It's almost like department wise. That's that's what ended up happening.
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But you're absolutely right, and it's important to acknowledge that any of the things that we talk about that need fixing, any of the impacts that we talk about as being felt by people within these systems are amplified and felt more and harder by anybody who has a marginalized identity, let alone a multi whole marginalized identity. And these impacts are not all created equal. They really aren't for as much as our systems are also not created we're not treated equally within them. Same goes for the impacts of all of the things we're talking about. It's delightful. Recording live. Recording wild, life happens. Always such a delight. Okay.
0:17:28
So what what do we do? How do we how do we get out of this cycle where we are only interested in pretending like we're doing something about it. Yeah. I mean, People don't like this answer, but you gotta shake things up because that is what is what got us here, and we can't hope that things are gonna change if we maintain the status quo. So the shakeup has to happen. One way or another. And, you know, there's there's some easy answers, and I say easy in that, like, you know, there've been a lot of people seeing them for a long time, but we need to actually follow through on them. We need other diverse voices in leadership, calling the shots, making the decisions. We need decolonized perspectives and frameworks for how we adjust our systems. We need to put our money where our mouth is. Right, with our whole profit situation and prioritize people, you know.
0:18:35
And and you talked about the dehumanizing that happens, you know, it's the whole system that we are operating under is one where there's just an incredible lack of respect that develops, right, and and gets cultivated and and encouraged. Right? We don't respect ourselves. We don't respect our own boundaries on our own time and rest and need for, you know, nourishment and help and all of the things that we need as human beings. Then we don't respect other people's time and boundaries and need for all of those things. Right? It you know, that respect piece I think is something that is really missing. It's really missing. And we need to if we're if we're gonna make changes, we need to be conscious and intentional about how it is that we're going to affect change.
0:19:26
Howard Bauchner: I was reading an article from Anne Howen, Peter, person who I adore last week, and she's talking about how the higher educated. The less structure there is around time balance that people who are more educated and make more money are also working more hours because they have phones that they're taking emails on at eleven PM from bed. And so we've created this culture where it's not just the work. It's the idea of the work. And the ways in which we are doing it that are so fundamentally flawed. Yes. Yes. And, you know, it's I I've got almost nothing but positive things to say about remote work options, asynchronous work options.
0:20:41
I think that that is such an important need that we need to prioritize culturally, you know, both within the United States, but also just within work cultures. I think that that needs to be a priority because it allows well, it allows for so many things, you know, inclusion of more diverse skill sets, you know, flexibility for people who have a lot of constraints on their day to day lives for a lot of different reasons. But, you know, I think it's the only sort of downside to this piece of it is that the remote asynchronous work options necessitate firmer individual boundaries around that. You know, I work with a lot of people, a lot of across a lot of different industries. And oftentimes, the people who have the best work life balance are people who work for the government because there are very firm rules and regulations about when and how you can access your work product. And you can't be lying in bed, scrolling on your phone, checking your work email because that's not a thing. Because that's not a thing. You can't do it.
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But, you know, but somebody who's hired for, you know, for low, you know, low entry, middle management, you know, even even higher higher level within organizations that don't have those firm rules and regulations, oh, man, does it get encouraged to be on the ball and to be responsive and to be available. Right? You know, we've we've all seen that meme that has gone around with, like, the, you know, the the US work perspective. It's like, sorry, I'm I'm having major surgery, but I'll get back to you from the recovery room. Right? Like, You know, that's that's not a joke. That's what is implicitly and often explicitly even encouraged. In our work cultures, and that's not okay. And I think that one extends to North American work culture in general I know a lot of Canadians who have similar mindsets, but it's very uniquely American, North American ideology Additionally, asynchronous work and the fuzziness of time around it is probably most detrimental to women and people who are coded fem, because they are taking care of all of the emotional labor while working at home and managing kids and the household and all of those things.
0:23:13
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. So what what happens now? We are on this threshold. Right? We can very clearly see that the way that we're doing things isn't working, we can see that there are some possibilities available to us, like a four day week work week. I I mean, the research on that one is universal. At this point in time. It works for everybody. Yeah. But we're still not changing things. So how do we help see this shift? Yeah. Yeah.
0:24:09
You know, I think it has to be sort of both internally grassroots grown, but it also has to be externally supported with, you know, rules and regulation around it. And I that boy, where again, I wish I had the answers. I wish I had the answers. But I think that when the system, you know, like the larger, maybe, like, if we're talking maybe federal regulations around work, right, around labor laws, around accommodations. Right? All of these kinds of things.
0:24:45
When that system doesn't support the people who it's supposed to support. Then either companies just do whatever they want, which has happened for a long time. Or as we saw begin to shift a little during the pandemic when all of a sudden workers had more leverage to say, listen without us, you've got nothing. So here's what we want. Right? We didn't we didn't see it at nearly the levels we should have. And that's one of my saduses about, you know, what the impacts have been from the pandemic is that we really, we could have gotten to a point where we had all kinds of leverage for for people who are doing the work for the for the stakeholders the way you talked about.
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But, you know, we need we need companies to sort of create these systems independently if the larger system isn't supporting it. And the way we do that is by people choosing where they wanna work based on what they're offering. Right? There's there's you know, the the company, Johnny, is offering all kinds of incredible sort of perks for working there. You know, like, a a minimum salary, like, all kinds of benefits. Just really, like menstrual leaves. Menstrol. Yeah. Menstrol leave, like, just incredible things. Right? And and I I wouldn't be surprised if they're flooded with applications when their when their job postings go up because that's what people want. We need that on mass. Right?
0:26:19
And, you know, that what I think I see with the layoffs that are happening is that it's not so much about laying off those people and saving the money on the salaries. It's really an intimidation tactic oftentimes. And especially when we started seeing all of those articles come out about the contagion effect of the layoffs and, you know, sort of industries saying, oh, well, if they're doing it, we'll do it. You know? It it it almost felt senseless, and that was sort of the point. Right? You know, it was it was almost like a random selection of people would get laid off. And it was so that all of the people left are thinking, oh, god, it could be me next, better be available at eleven PM, better, you know, be emailing you back from the recovery room, I don't wanna be next.
0:27:02
Howard Bauchner: And there there are some conflicting facts here. So I'm just gonna give you some numbers and we'll we'll attempt to parse this in the best way possible. Okay. There are according to current numbers, approximately one point nine jobs per US job seeker. K. However, only sixty percent of the available workforce is actually employed. Now, there are a lot of reasons why that other forty percent of available workers are not employed, but that's still an incredibly high threshold of people who are in many cases, those forty percent are incredibly disadvantaged. So we're talking, they're not employed because they're on disability benefits. And cannot make more than their benefits or they will lose those benefits. So it's enforced poverty.
0:28:15
When we compare that to the number of jobs available. And the number of bad jobs too. Right? The number of people who are leaving jobs. So the numbers right now that I have on that is approximately ten weeks. Is the nationwide turnover rate in fortune five hundred companies. So that's gonna be a lot of fast food and quick service.
0:28:43
But ten weeks, people stay at a job for two and a half months and then go, there are greener pastures elsewhere. So there are there are a lot of jobs. There are a lot of bad jobs. And there are a lot of people who cannot work because the jobs are either bad or they cannot risk making more money. What do we even make of that? I mean, work needs fixing is what we make of it. Right? That's and and I would I would just also add to what you said people don't just leave after ten weeks because there's greater pastors. Oh, no. No. No. Believe even if there's no other pastor. Right. And the reason why is because the level of work that you're talking about here will cost people money to perform. Right? And that's where pay equity, living wage, all of these things come into play.
0:29:50
Because when we're talking about very marginalized people, people in extreme hardship. Right? They might get a job that they can hold for ten weeks but maybe they have to take excessive public transportation to be able to get there. Cutting into not just the financial piece because I have to pay for that public transportation. But also the time. Well, also the time. Right? The unpaid time for commuting. Right?
0:30:21
And then those jobs are ones that are incredibly taxing. On physical health, on mental health, on just wellness in general. Right? People are doing jobs where they have to be standing for incredible amounts of time, you know, where they're where they're not given appropriate breaks, where all of these things build up. Right? People's bodies start to break down in much shorter than ten weeks sometimes under these kinds of conditions. And there are no benefits because they haven't even made it to twelve weeks ninety days at which they're entitled to those benefits. That's right.
0:31:01
So all of a sudden, you have someone who's paying money for transportation, paying in time to take that transportation, paying for supplies to help themselves get through the day. Right? Paying more money for food because they can't cook it at home. Paying for for maybe medical appointments to be able to see somebody who can help their body feel better after having been standing for eight hours, five days week. Right? Like, all of a sudden, you add up those costs, it costs people money to work. Right.
0:31:35
Which is why, I guess, it's fine that Amazon has a hundred and fifty percent turnover rate because they are happier to churn through those employees. Than ever to get them to a place where they are given raises or benefits or any kind of meaningful, I don't know, humanity in that kind of job. Right? Right. Right. And so who does that benefit? Right? Like Amazon, of course, is doing fine on their bottom line. So Is it just the shareholders that this benefits? What what is the benefit? Who is benefiting from churning? Literally, churning through people? And I think Amazon is a really good question because those people that we don't care about who are pricing their literal bodies are making sure you're getting your packages in two days or less. Great. So the customer here, I suppose, does benefit but there are some problems on the customer and two, which we can perhaps get into another day or on another show because Amazon does not actually benefit its customers in most ways either. Mhmm. So what are we left with here? What what are our bottom lines? Eight.
0:33:19
Well, I think we've really discussed that work needs fixing prior. Oh, yeah. Like, at this point in time, I'm like, wow. This is this is this has been a fun ride. Yeah. You know, it it feels like you know, you can feel the heaviness of it. Right? You know, we've we've been pretty upbeat in our conversation. You and I have great conversations about these things. And we love to really tease them out, but it's heavy. It's heavy. The weight of this is heavy, and the weight of this again, it's felt disproportionately. And the people who are already hurting are already carrying heavy loads are bearing the most weight of the broken system. Maybe not the broken system, maybe the system that is working exactly as it intended. And and and I think there is probably some room to have that argument.
0:34:17
But for us here, I think the next question that we ask is where do we start? Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I'm sure you have ideas. What's should we go back and forth again? Do a a rapid round of wear like this feels let's let's let's finish it on a high note. I know. I know. Well, here's what I'll say.
0:34:47
I I was very hopeful about the sort of power swing that we saw during the pandemic, right, that people who were working those nine to fives or eight sixes were having some choice, having some agency, having some power to bring to the table, to negotiate for things that they needed. And I think that where we fell short on the US side of things is that we didn't do it collectively or at scale. And while that continues to be true, there is now more labor organization than there has been in this country for over a hundred years. And while most people are highly distrustful, of labor and labor unions. I think that collective organizing is going to have a renaissance.
0:35:57
I think that if you pay attention to the ways in which the Internet has allowed us to organize together -- Mhmm. -- that now there are places like the anti work subreddit where hundreds of thousands of people are learning about collective organization that were not before. That's right. That's right. And it's been a very targeted propaganda machine that has made people distrustful. Of collective action in these ways. Right? And and when when you see behind the curtain, then then you know. Right? There's no going back.
0:36:40
But I think exactly what you're talking about, the Internet has, in some sense, has been a great equalizer. Right? And so you know, making sure that we're seeing vigilant too about access to Internet being something that is that is as equitable as it can be. That is as free as it can be for people so that that way the people who need it have access to those collective spaces. That's where the sweet spot is. And you're right. It's more activity in this area, in this arena than we've seen in probably a hundred years.
0:37:13
I was gonna say sixty conservatively, but it's probably a lot longer. Right? It's longer. Yeah. Additionally, I think the kids are gonna be alright y'all. Gen z is exercising more economy when it comes to their employment than ever before -- Mhmm. -- and highly educated college kids are coming out of college and going into workplaces to organize deliberately, specifically. And I I think there's some there's a lot of conversations and there's a lot of nuance to be had about this. It's it's it's term. It's called salting. I'll link some articles in the show notes.
0:38:05
But at the end of the day, I think the fact that that generation is so aware of what work is and is not and should not be it gives me hope. I agree. I agree. I'm incredibly hopeful about it. And I think you know, I've I've I'm an older millennial. And, you know, I I spent a fair number of years being, like, the young ones Right? But but, no, the young ones. And and what I see is our responsibility for older generations is to really foster and support and protect their interests as they find their fee and they do the thing. You know, and not not fight it. There's, you know, as an older millennial, I grew up with a lot of people older than me saying, oh, you can't do that. That's not how it's done. Right? And that that sort of just tends to be how it goes with generations. Right? But we need to understand that the ultimate goal here is that we all get a better situation out of it. And we may not like their tone or whatever But if they're working towards this collective place that's gonna benefit all of us, we need to get onboard. We need to get on board and we need to make sure that they have a clear path to do it.
0:39:28
Howard Bauchner: And for me, the last note in terms of collective is that more people than ever before are aware that it's not about race and it's not about gender. It's about class. This is the divide that we are currently butting up against. And the one percent of the one percent that owns ninety percent of the globe and ninety seven or so percent of capital cannot just do whatever they want anymore. There is an increasing amount of pushback against billionaire bullies and the things that they have and continue to do with the money that they make. And that that accountability, I don't think, has truly ever existed before. But now I can go to Elon Musk on the platform that he owns and tell him that he's an idiot. And y'all friends, that that's that's a gift that we get to explore and continue to grow. Right. Right. Right? And and keep pushing the envelope. Keep pushing the envelope, you know, to to to follow through, to the redistribution. Because the one percent of one percent owning ninety percent seven percent of capital. We're seeing real clearly it's not sustainable. Is not sustainable. But the less we have to lose, the quicker of the falls. Right? So I think that's what we're hopeful about.
0:41:37
And I think then as we go forward into this series, and folks, I would definitely solicit any input you have here. Anything you wanna hear us talk about. Leave it in the comments. Feel free to send an email. We'll talk about places to find us here in a minute.
0:42:00
This discussion involves all of us. We don't we don't fix work on an individual level. That that doesn't work. It's the collective that matters here. So how do we grow it? How do we build it? How do we have those discussions that elevate the process? And we will be back here in two weeks for the next episode Joea, what are we talking about?
0:42:32
Man, I I wanna talk about I wanna talk about more of all of this, Briar. There was there was some talk that we talked about related to what happens when we're not just the employee, but when we flip and become an entrepreneur when we start running the business. Right? I think that that duality is one that's felt by a lot of people. I would be really interested in exploring that more. And I would really like to talk about that from the perspective of, you know, For people who are doing that, we've seen such a huge uptake of people starting their own businesses during the pandemic. Incredible numbers of women entrepreneurs or people color entrepreneurs who are starting their own businesses for the first time. You know, how do we take what we've learned, what we've internalized from our entire work history and our entire professional lives and how do we enact something different from the status quo when we're the ones who get to call the shots. And I think that that would be a real fun place to go to. But let's keep doing all of this and let's hear from people about what they wanna talk about.
0:43:51
Howard Bauchner: And I will say there is a big difference between fixing work at scale for hundreds or thousands of employees and fixing work for one or a few. However, shockingly, many of you would be surprised to learn you have taken those habits and customs of the work of hundreds or thousands and internalized it and brought it into your business of one or a few. So I think that's a perfect place to start. Let's micro businesses, and then we'll take it out to the macro. And y'all, I am so excited about this. This is going to be a really, really fun discussion. So If you've heard, if you've listened, if you've benefited from this, feel free to share the work This will be up later today on the neurodiversitymedian network dot com Joea will have access to this here. You can share these live streams.
0:45:05
Truly, what were about is getting everyone out into the world and having these conversations. Jela, where can the people find you? Mostly on LinkedIn. That's where I like to hang out. So find me on LinkedIn. I've got my personal profile page. Hit me up anytime. Slide into my DMs, whatever you want. I've got a website where you can book discovery calls with me as well linked from my LinkedIn profile. Come find me. Let's talk. If you need help with your career strategy, I would love to hear about it. We will have all of those links in the show notes as well. Thank you all so much for being here today. This is what the neurodiversity media network is about. We are about these discussions, this depth going into the things with a little bit more nuance, and I am really excited to see where this series goes. Thank you all for being here. Have an amazing day.
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