0:00:01 - Briar
Click the button. Well, hello everyone. Welcome. I am Briar Harvey. This is the Neurodiversity Media Network and today I am so excited y'all. We are here with Dr Melissa Bird and we are gonna have a conversation about how to have hard conversations. So We met and I can't even remember it was a coffee chat, i think, and we it was 30 minutes, that turned into like an hour and a half and it was just an incredibly expansive Conversation and I was like I'm doing this thing, you should come talk to my people, and here we are. So Will you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you come to be here in this space?
0:00:57 - Dr. Melissa Bird
Well, hello everybody. Hi, I'm so happy to see you. I am Dr. Melissa Bird. I am a lay preacher and a life coach and a public speaker and a troublemaker, and I live in Corvallis, Oregon, and I've been doing this work for six and a half years. I don't know how that happened.
When I finished my PhD, I knew I did not want to work in academia, and so I was teaching as an adjunct and launching my business at the same time, and I thought, because I started my business in 2016, 2017.
I thought I was gonna help Women who are mad about the election find their voice to make a difference in their communities, and what ended up happening is that I started my business as bird girl industries and then I transitioned into natural born rebel and then I had this whole Download divine download to just be me. So that's how dr Melissa Bird came into being, which is the name of my business and and How I have always operated. I have a master's degree in PhD and social work. I didn't do clinical work. I always did advocacy and lobbying, and I wrote and passed six pieces of legislation in Utah for LGBT, homeless youth and also for a Planned Parenthood of Utah, and so, yes, i am very familiar with having hard conversations, and so one of the things that I've really brought to my work as I do my coaching work and also my public speaking is really how to dig deep into really difficult conversations about the feelings and the experiences that we have in the world so that we can make a difference in our communities. Well, they're not.
0:02:56 - Briar
We're mad about an election and What's at stake here is Everything right, like our ability to have conversations with people is how we create change.
0:03:13 - Dr. Bird
Yeah, it's not just that, though. I think that I think one of the things that is missing is our ability to have conversations about things we don't agree on. So And I think this is where you and I really start going down some really beautiful trails together is like this idea that I'm right, you're wrong, that's, it is Not actually how the world operates, that's not how we operate as human beings, and it goes back to my, my good old pagan roots. Right that we are naturally occurring beings on this planet. Therefore, we are deeply connected to the earth. We are the earth, we are the land, we are the trees and the forest and the birds. We are part of the earth and therefore There is no right or wrong for us.
There is nothing that has to be controlled on this planet, including us, and That means that it gives us permission to stop having to be correct About things that matter deeply to us. It means that we can start to find connections together About things that matter deeply to us. So what happens is that gives us the opportunity to have a dialogue about really controversial things, because we can find our commonalities as humans being and this is something I've really been talking about a lot lately, breyer, like this idea that we are humans being. That's what we're doing. We're all doing it together too, all at the same time, we're never going to agree.
No, i Don't want to agree. Like I Boring. I so boring. Like I sit here in this household with these other human beings. You know I've got two kids who are teenagers That live in my house. I've got another one she's 21, though She's not here, and my husband, you know, who's a disabled veteran with PTSD, like he's got some stuff. And you know I've got my stuff. Like we've all got stuff and we all have different opinions. And the thing I love about being able to hold conversation without being right or wrong is That we get to model for our kids how to hold conversation without being right or wrong, and there's something truly magnificent about watching a 12 year old realize that they don't know everything.
That there's truth to that, yes. and then being able to Listen to how they talk to their friends about like well, have you ever thought about it this way? What a game changer if we all started talking to each other about well, have you ever thought about it this way?
0:06:01 - Briar
Imagine, because That comes from a place of curiosity.
0:06:07 - Dr. Bird
Yes, and I think that this is something I I I truly think, and and so part of my trademark, part of my work, is the art of the graceful revolution. And How do we have grace in creating Disruption and revolution in our communities and in our lives? part of that requires that we remain curious and wondering instead of all knowing and thinking. We have all the answers, and And one of the things I love about doing this work is really inviting people to think about.
Well, i wonder what would happen if I, like one of the rituals that I do in the morning, right when I'm coming into my body, like right when I'm just getting in, as I say to myself, i wonder what will happen today. I Want to love that today because you know we've got a lisp rare right like we know We've got our things to do right. But when we open our day with, i wonder what's going to happen today. Anything could, yeah, yeah, and then we get out of that need to control and predict our lives and then we open it up for all the things to take place.
0:07:24 - Briar
Yeah, i think a big part of the issue here is that We are not allowed to feel our feelings in public spaces, and So When it comes to conversation, i'd have to be right, because if I am wrong then I have to admit it.
0:07:51 - Dr. Bird
Yeah, and don't you think I mean, i feel like this is really what we're all craving right now, like I just want to talk to somebody. I Don't want you know when I do my work with my clients, i don't want them to agree with me. That's not what coaching is about, right, it's about transformation. It's about helping people see what happens when you are present to the moment, not future tripping, not going too far in the past. Listen, if we could change the past, we would all have built time machines already. Like, honestly, we don't have our little portals in our closet and we will crawl into them and it would be awesome. Oh, my god, i had the best portal in my closet when I was a kid. I built an ET spaceship in my closet and I had food storage and all my stuffed animals. We were all ready to go to space. I built the solar system like I cut out pieces of paper on the wall and, listen, if we could actually do that, we would. We would a scott pay as fast as possible, right, like?
I'm out, see ya, but that's not what we're meant to do. We're meant to give our souls this experience of humane We are, humans being, and so Being right or wrong takes us out of alignment with the experience of living our lives. And I will say this if we truly, truly want to disrupt white supremacist patriarchy, then we have to stop thinking we're right.
0:09:15 - Briar
Okay, I need you to say more about That.
0:09:20 - Dr. Bird
Why supremacist, patriarchal, misogynistic structures tell us that we are wrong simply by the nature of our existence. I Mean I am a Native American, pagan, christian, bisexual, feminist, witch.
0:09:38 - Briar
There's nothing about you, that is correct. Really problematic.
0:09:42 - Dr. Bird
I'm no problematic on so many levels and I used to think that the way I could make change And I think this is just the nature of being in my teens, in my 20s right, it's like that fierce, feisty You know the little chicken hawk in the cartoons from best day right, like yeah let me add them let me add them. Like that, i think that's just the right of passage We all go through in our teens, in our 20s. Like, let me add them. I know all the things.
0:10:08 - Briar
I'm gonna be right and I'm gonna prove you wrong.
0:10:12 - Dr. Bird
Let me add it and you know there's nothing a white supremacist loves more than a fight Nothing, nothing. And so so I had this moment where, when I was in my 30s And I was lobbying for Planned Parenthood in Utah, where I realized I was like, what do I need to know? Like, what do I, what do I really need to know To make to make this happen? because I wanted to make my bills pass, i wanted to protect Everybody's bodies, right, like that was my job. And I thought, well, first, here's what I know about Utah. You got to get in with the Republicans, because if you don't get in with the Republicans, your chili screwed right.
And So I started going to coffee with all of them, even though they don't drink coffee because they're Mormon. So it was like all the diet coke that could have right. But I would start hanging out with them and I'd be like, listen, let's, let's get to know each other. And they were like, when I left, half of the, the legislature was like deeply upset because I mean, some of them are really glad I was leaving because I was so good at my job, but some of them, briar, were really like we're really gonna miss talking to you. I Mean, every bill I ran was sponsored by Republicans and it was a different day, and I will I will own that to all of you are watching who are going missing me realize what we? I know politics has changed since I was there. I know, i know and I think part of the reason it's changed is because we've forgotten that we each put our pants on one leg at a time.
0:11:41 - Briar
So there's really something about the idea of are mortal enemy and politics now right. If you do not believe what I believe, you are my enemy, And I mean that in a very moral way, that everything that you believe is wrong.
0:12:06 - Dr. Bird
Right, yeah, and there's nothing that the patriarchy likes more than an enemy nothing. And so what I mean by disruption and what I mean by graceful revolution is to think about how we can infiltrate the membranes of power so that we can connect at that level, within those spaces. There is nothing I enjoy more than being a lay preacher in the Episcopal Church, because I get to get up on that pulpit and preach a sermon and people look at me and they are moved by me, and I am not supposed to be standing up there. According to white supremacy, there's no reason for me to be on that pulpit And what happens is I cross the bridge. I bridge who I am while I'm preaching the literal word of God. To help people see that and I just wrote this the other day, brer what if it's not the Christian church? I have to read it word for word. Hold on, i'm gonna read this word for word because it was so good and it's so good.
0:13:19 - Briar
While you're finding it, i'm going to give a brief lesson on the Episcopalian Church for people who may not understand what Melissa is doing here. So the Episcopal Church in America is the Anglican Church in England, and it was founded by King Henry VIII so he could marry his new wives. This is the foundation for an entire religious philosophy, and when it came over into the States, we didn't lose any of the structure. Episcopalians believe what Anglicans believe, which is modified Catholicism, and so there's a real tradition here. When was the first Episcopalian female minister?
0:14:17 - Dr. Bird
I don't know, i don't have any idea. Like within the last 20, 30 years, i think. Yeah, i think it's very recent that I'm even up on that pulpit And we were one of the first. I mean it caused the huge schism when we had the first gay bath. Gay bishop, like that was us, right, right, and the Episcopal Church is not without its problems. I'm currently working with our bishop about our truth and reconciliation and our reparations to the tribal governments in Oregon. Like, let's be clear, we have a long history of problematic, racist, white supremacist crap.
Yes, this was my thought the other day. Is Christianity a divide and conquer structure or are people a divide and conquer people? Because let me just say I don't believe. And I came to church kicking and screaming And I mean like I thought I was gonna walk in there and get set on fire, but my oldest daughter wanted to go to church And she and I both hypothesized it was for me, it wasn't for her at all, cause she didn't go to church anymore, right, but like this huge thing happened And I realized that there were literally people back in, like the 11th and 12th centuries pagan women in Scotland and Ireland who used to bridge between Christianity and paganism, like they were the bridge That brought the old ways, because paganism really just means the old keeper of the old ways. They brought the old ways to the church and back and forth, and that was a time when we were not doing the all or nothing, right or wrong thinking and it's how paganism survived right.
Yes, and I think this is such an interesting thing to think about is we're looking at our nation today And we're looking at the rise of christian nationalism. I talk about this on my podcast. I did an interview with someone um, a priest who is um Helping with this big national movement to raise awareness around christian nationalism, because it affects all of us. It doesn't just affect people of color. The rise of christian nationalism It affects every single person in this country and it is deeply interrelated to the attacks we're seeing on the lgbtq community and on women's bodies like this is all a woven tapestry of domination, right, and It is not god who said go and divide and conquer. It is not god who said keep slaves. It is not god who said kill all the indigenous people, engage in mass genocide. That wasn't at. None of that is actually in the bible.
0:16:54 - Briar
Mormon.
0:16:59 - Dr. Bird
It's not in the Torah, it's not in, it is not in any structure of religion To to divide and conquer. That is people. And I think part of the solution, part of us really digging into having difficult and hard conversations, and I am the first person to say I I spent decades attacking, attacking church decades, and then I realized that That I am so much more grounded and expansive and centered and healthy When I stop attacking things I don't understand and I start trying to understand them. Oh, that was a good quote, that was that was great.
0:17:46 - Briar
Well, we'll make sure to pull that one for you, because This is where humanity lives.
0:17:55 - Dr. Bird
Yeah.
0:17:57 - Briar
Right, it's in the ability to recognize the enemy as our fellow man.
0:18:04 - Dr. Bird
Right and make them. They're not our enemy, and we all live in the messy middle. I mean, i think this is why there was so much chaos in in 2016 and 2017, because most people just farts around in the middle. This polarization that we're experiencing on the left and the right Is what's leading us to think that there's something wrong with us, and what I think we are witnessing Is the downfall of the patriarchal structure as it exists And it's freaking people out, because it's that it gives us the image of power and control. And there is. I mean, i I literally had my mentor say to me the other day There is literally nothing on this earth that is meant to be controlled Nothing, nothing.
And that means we can have hard conversations because we don't have to yell and scream and bitch and moan at each other. There's nothing to be controlled. If people don't want to work with me, they don't have to. If people want to work with me, that's rad. If the publisher is going to publish my book, that's wonderful. If the publisher is going to reject my book, okay, i'll just find someone else to do it. If my kid's not going to put on the blue pants that I really want my kid to wear because I want them to look Super cute today. Then I can give them two more options. Do you want the red pants or the green pants? I'm like There is literally nothing that is meant to be controlled.
And let me tell you, my marriage got a heck of a lot better When, all of a sudden, i realized Oh, i'm not supposed to be controlling his process, right, that I love him and I want what's best for him. And if he's, if he's taking care of his PTSD in his way, at least he's taking care of his PTSD and I don't have to control that process. And you know what's really beautiful, briar? It's? it's gone into almost every single aspect of my life, like I don't have to control my relationships with my friends because my friends are going to be there if they're meant to be there And I'm going to be there if I'm meant to be there for them. My relationship with my kids has totally changed since I let go of trying to micromanage Jim's PTSD, since I stopped worrying about whether or not he was going to be okay, because if Jim's meant to be okay, he's going to be okay.
And boy howdy, releasing that need to control the process Has opened up so much more freedom for all of us in this household. Like if we could just do that at that micro level. The ripple effect that comes out For everybody because my kids are interacting with their people And their people are interacting with their people and my clients are interacting with their people, they're interacting with me and then they're going out and interacting with their people. The ripple effect we could have if we just realized that having difficult and complicated conversations is part of being a human. It doesn't need to be controlled in any aspect. Everything would shift.
0:21:05 - Briar
I think part of the issue becomes How do we exist within these structures that are already in place? While having these conversations right, the patriarchy and white supremacy are still a Factual reality day to day for so many people's lives.
0:21:35 - Dr. Bird
Yeah, for all of us. I mean they really are. I mean it does impact every single person on this planet. Really it does, because we can't get away from each other. I mean, if there's anything we learned from the covid pandemic, it is that we are all intricately intertwined and there's, i think there's two things that really come up for me. The first thing is if we're going to Understand that what we are watching in real time is the crumbling of a democracy In real time, right for the very first time. Everybody's watching everything that's happening because of this, this thing we call the internet.
We have to deal with our grief and loss. We have to Really, truly affirm that every single one of us was pulled kicking and screaming into a grief process in 2020. Either we lost, we lost status We lost, we literally family and friends and loved ones died. We couldn't have the ritual of death. We're grieving whoever we were in 2019 and whatever was quote unquote lost or taken away from us For people who were in power, them getting told. I mean I feel like the mother earth just put us in a gigantic time out. She's like well, you know, i'm kind of tired of how you're treating me, so I'm going to put you all in a time out And you could just sit there and think about your stuff. And for many people, particularly White heterosexual people I will not just say men, because I think women were just as bad They lost it like they were, like you can't tell me what to do. And what happened, though, in that moment, briar, is that people decided to start picking on the Karen's. They started nitpicking, picking, picking, picking, instead of going oh, i can see that you're really afraid, yes, i'm. I wonder what would happen if, the next time We were confronted with our discomfort, instead of saying we're triggered, because I think we're misusing that word, we started saying oh wow, it looks like you're having a really hard time. I'm really sorry that you're super uncomfortable about what's going on right now. Do you want to talk about it? Well, i'm talking about when we're in mortal danger either. No, the second thing I want to say that I think is really important I'm talking about processing unprocessed grief, admitting we have lost. But the second thing I think is really important is that we have to admit That we are falling into this trap that we're supposed to be afraid all the time. I'm so afraid, and I have done this in my own coaching practice, so I really want to own that. This is a new idea for me that I'm really playing. I'm playing with it right, like I'm really just having a good time with it.
Fear says Fear is an automated response created as a result of our humanists, our animalistic instinct that says fight or flight. Do I have to fight it? Is it going to fight me, or should I run like hell because I cannot win? Okay, i'm in danger, i'm in mortal danger. Do I fight or do I run? I believe that we are anthropomorphizing fear into this thing that doesn't actually exist For a huge chunk of the population, because in our day-to-day lives we are not in danger. I will. There is exceptions for people who are in abusive situations or in situations where they are in danger, and they do need to make regular decisions every day about whether they run or they fight, but the majority of our population is not in that situation on a regular hourly basis. I'm really I'm going to have to process this one for a while.
0:25:25 - Briar
I think I've been processing it for months Because my initial response is to push back at that. And I know me well enough to know that when I am inclined to push hard, that's usually something for me to push back at, that's usually something for me to work with. When you are a person of color In America, leaving your house is dangerous.
0:26:00 - Dr. Bird
And that's why I said there's exceptions to this rule. And that's also why I said for the majority of us, that's not where we live, because I can pass, i pass 10 months out of the year I am a white lady.
0:26:17 - Briar
The two months out of the year that I am not Has always been a really truly. Other people get to see the way that I am treated when I am not a white lady, and it is mind-blowing, isn't it weird?
0:26:31 - Dr. Bird
It's so weird, right? The other thing that I think is really interesting is this is another place for us to have hard conversations And I am seeing this This is coming up many times in my life Also the assumptions that particularly progressive people make About how they have to protect everybody And that means they are good people, and what that does is it makes it so we don't listen. When people of color say I am actually not safe in that space And I am not safe in that space And I am not safe in that space, and people of color say I am actually not safe in that space, they don't go. Oh really, oh, that's interesting. Can you tell me more about that? They go. I am doing everything I can to make you safe in this space.
0:27:16 - Briar
Ooh, that's a real thing, there is a sense of misdiveness about how safe we are making that space.
0:27:27 - Dr. Bird
This is a safe space. This is a brave space. What might be for you? Uh huh. And then when someone says you talking about who you are really triggered me, did it? Or did it just make you really super uncomfortable, that I am speaking my truth, with authenticity and openness and curiosity about who you are?
0:27:56 - Briar
So you said a thing there My truth, which is a thing that so this is actually not my knit to pick, this is my husband's knit to pick, but truth doesn't belong to you, it is. It is a fact, right, and when we try to make truth a non-universal thing, it becomes much easier to argue about what is and is not.
0:28:31 - Dr. Bird
Yes, and I was giving a speech to the Portland Rotary about a month ago. I gave a speech to the Portland Rotary And one of the things that I said in that speech is I said we are looking through our eyes and I was actually talking about my husband And, you know, i, i know what's best for him, right? like I'm all dude, can't you see what's best for you? right, because that's how we're trained to be in a relationship, a marriage, right? but what I realized is what I can see is through my eyes. So what I am witnessing, what you are experiencing right now, even in this conversation, breyer, is your truth, from your perspective, and we don't have any right to tell someone that isn't their truth. And we also don't have any right to tell people that they are wrong about their experiences. And this is where we start to really mess with white supremacist, patriarchal structures. The minute we connect with each other, even if we vehemently disagree with each other and I'm not talking about an act of violence. I want to be really clear here. I want to talk about in a majority of our conversations, there is always an opportunity to go. Well, that's your perspective and I can see it And I can't say would you like, would you be interested in knowing how I feel about that? and if someone says no, i really wouldn't, then you know the door has shut and it's time to leave.
But in the land of social media and GIFs and memes, we don't. My favorite thing when I used to be on Twitter because they kicked me off that my favorite thing when I used to be on Twitter would be to say why don't you come over to my house and say that to my face? And that would shut down the whole entire conversation because they'd be like I'm not coming to your house, i just want to yell at you online. My favorite thing to do with the trolls would be to just be so obnoxious that they go oh, this isn't, i'm not getting what I want right And with, like you said, most of us play in the messy middle. We are not on these extremes of the extreme right or the extreme left. That's not where the earth operates. Again, it goes back to my point about us being naturally occurring beings on this planet. Most of nature occurs in the messy middle.
0:31:15 - Briar
And there is a real unwillingness to get dirty.
0:31:26 - Dr. Bird
No more lotus baby.
0:31:29 - Briar
So we're going to talk a lot next episode about the grief cycle and how people need to move through that. For this, with the remainder of this episode, i'd really like to dig into the ways in which we can have a conversation even when it's hard. How do I, when I'm feeling those feelings, how do I pull back?
0:32:01 - Dr. Bird
Well, one of my favorite techniques is deep breath in through the nose, out through the mouth. So I actually have a ritual of breathing and I actually do this every time I open up the container for the graceful revolution. Any time I do a meditation, it's in through the nose, out through the mouth, in through the nose, out through the mouth, and then open mouth, in through the mouth, out through the mouth. The first two breaths. The first one gets you into your body. So even if you are in a heightened state and you are really uncomfortable and you know that a hard conversation is coming, the first one actually drops you into your body. So when you breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth, it actually anchors you back into your body And most of us spend our time out here instead of in here. The second breath allows the energy from the top of your head to come out to the bottoms of your feet and it creates this tether so you're grounded. So the second breath is really for grounding. The first one is just to get you back in here. The second one is to get you really grounded. And then the third one opens your heart. When you breathe through your mouth, you breathe directly into your heart And when that happens you can feel your back open and you can feel your chest open, and when that opens, then you are instantaneously calmer. And so when you're having the hard conversation, if you breathe through your mouth, it keeps you anchored into your heart. And guess what your heart represents? Love. It is the center of our be. It's why ballerinas stand with their hands like this, Because it's the center of our body, it's the literal center. And so when we people think it's your tummy, but it's why ballerinas hold the sexual position, because it's balanced. And so once you create that flow of energy through your breath to your heart, then you can have really uncomfortable.
I mean, it's not like I'm a stranger to having difficult conversations with people And it's not like I'm a stranger to being physically attacked either. I want to be really super clear. When I I've been married to, i've been with women for 12 years. When I was in Utah, i, when Jim first held my hand in public, i pulled my hand away from him. I was like, ah, don't touch me. And he's like what's wrong with you? And I said I started sobbing And I said I have not been touched in public for 12 years. The last time I did that I got my ass handed to me by a total stranger.
So it's not that I'm not familiar with being at that height in state, but what I realized as I have gotten older is that I love having conversations with people who don't agree with me.
I mean my friend, amy Wolf, and I have a whole series of videos on my YouTube channel about having really hard conversations.
She is much more conservative than I am, but over the course of our years talking unscripted about really hard things like abortion and guns, and religion and God and children and sex ed and Republicans and Democrats and all the hard things we have come more closer to each other because we were willing to have those conversations openly. But I can tell you, most of the time I was breathing through my mouth And I knew when I wasn't, amy and I would start to nitpick at each other when I would lose track of that grounded breath And I didn't realize it until, like I don't know, maybe a year ago that that was what I was doing was I was intentionally connecting with her online life, having really hard conversations, because we had this mutual agreement that we would talk. And I think that's the second thing You breathe into your body and you be open enough to talk. But then you have to have a mutual agreement that you're going to not agree.
0:36:13 - Briar
Okay, so I'm going to confess that this is a place where I really struggle. Yeah, And not not with the agreement, but the staying in disagreement. Yeah, Because and my husband hates this I'll be like no, I'm done, I'm opting out of this conversation. I am not continuing to have this conversation, which is and I recognize this really damaging to the way conversation is supposed to work. It's me unilaterally saying no, what you're saying no longer has value to me. So I think how do we stay in the disagreement?
0:37:10 - Dr. Bird
Well. So I think part of it is really understanding that there is no again, and I actually I want to bring you back to the idea that there is no wrong or right way to have a conversation, for each one of us conversations are different And I think it starts with not setting ourselves up that it's going to be hard. Yeah, i mean, what if we, instead of like making it a hard conversation, it was a complicated conversation or a difficult conversation or a convoluted conversation, right, Like what if it was a multi-layered process that didn't have, that didn't necessarily have to have an outcome, but it could just be. Like it was when I was growing up and we would sit around our giant table at our family parties and I would listen, because I was little, but I would listen to them talk about politics and even my the women in my family were very heavily involved in politics, more than the memoir, and so I would listen to my grandma and my auntie and my mom and my cousins talk politics with my grandpa and my uncle and everybody, and it was like and they did not agree, but it was beautiful to watch because no one was screaming and yelling at each other And I realized that that is special, but I actually don't think it's as special as we, as social media makes it like, oh, you're privileged. No, actually, i actually think more people have those conversations than the fighting, arguing, hating, because I feel like that has evolved along with, like over the last 20 years. I mean, i really think this is a post-Clinton era phenomenon of hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. It started with Reagan, but the social media coming about in the 90s, like all of this internet, the internet was the thing that escalated everything.
I actually was talking to a friend of mine, my best gay, who I actually don't agree with on many things, but he and I have these really great conversations about all different, all sorts of different things, and we were talking about how he was having to tell his mom that the reason he communicates with somebody a certain way it through writing is because that's how we used to do it back in the olden times. We used to write letters to each other and then we'd have to wait for a response And then the response would come and then we would write back. I literally wrote letters to my best friend, kristen, who lived in Salt Lake City when I lived in Park City, all through our growing up, we didn't talk on the phone. We wrote letters to each other and we lived 30 minutes away. We have lost the ability to wait for a response. So as you're getting pushed into conversation, that's where the breathing comes back in, like we have to wait for the response.
And I'm going to give you the little nugget that I have been given repeatedly over the last three years Two ears, one mouth. We have two ears for listening and one mouth for communicating through speech. Two ears, one mouth Listen, listen to spirit, listen to the people who are talking, listen to your inner voice and then speak.
0:40:37 - Briar
Something you said earlier, and you and I both have a lot of experience with PTSD and the way that it works. People definitely use the word triggered incorrectly, but how do we continue to have hard conversations when something is triggering, actually legitimately triggering?
0:41:04 - Dr. Bird
I don't think we do. I think we have to. I think that is where we have the grace in the space to say I see you and I love you, and I love you so much, i respect your humanity, i respect you as a human being so much that I'm going to walk away And you let me know when you're ready to talk. I don't think we continue at all And I think that's the problem. I think what we have been trained to believe is that in order to win conversation, we have to keep pushing and keep pushing and keep pushing. And if it feels like force, that's not being in our intuitive, spiritual, human state, it is a tool of the patriarchy, that is a method of control, is to keep going. And so when someone is legitimately, genuinely triggered and you know it because you can feel it right, like your spidey senses we all have spidey senses It all goes oh, oh, oh, cross the line there, okay, okay, because you know the difference between someone being uncomfortable and someone being full blown triggered. And that is where and I think we do it with compassion and love and grace and we say oh, i see you, i'm walking away And, if it's appropriate, to apologize, because I think we also over apologize.
Women the world over have been apologizing. I'm sorry, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i'm sorry. No, if it is appropriate to apologize for causing that person to be triggered, then yes, you apologize And remember we don't know what's going to trigger somebody. That's the hardest part of living with someone with PTSD, because you're moving along, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, oh, we're in a full blown mouth. Okay, oh, whoa. Okay, you know, but it's going to be.
0:43:05 - Briar
And I am not to blame for my mental health, but I certainly am responsible for it.
0:43:19 - Dr. Bird
We all are Yeah, yeah, and I'm really excited about our next conversation because I really think it goes back to grief and loss.
0:43:29 - Briar
I think so too. I think there's a lot to be said, though, about winning. How do we have conversations without keeping score?
0:43:42 - Dr. Bird
Hmm, i don't remember the moment when I realized my life wasn't a game, but I know that I had a moment where I realized that my life is not a game. I'm not playing chess, right, like this is not monopoly, this is You don't have to win if you realize that life is not. We are not in a race, we are not in a competition. I think we're really learning this since the pandemic. Like the bigger houses, the bigger cars, the bigger this, the bigger accounts, the bigger all those things. That's not why we're here And I see this a lot in the coaching community that real competitive. You know the million dollar launches. Like it used to be a six figure launch, now it's moving into a literal eight.
0:44:44 - Briar
Listen, we were making fun of this in the catalyst the other day. Someone was talking about nine figures and we were just laughing because when does it stop?
0:44:57 - Dr. Bird
Never, but I think we can't, i think it can. Actually. I think it, i think in 30 years My hope is that we have stopped those shenanigans And we have moved out of the need to compete and into the need to see each other. I really hope it is my life's work here to hopefully help people know that they are seeing And that that if we start to approach hard, difficult, complicated, convoluted conversations from a space of seeing and listening to ears, one mouth, like my mentor, eileen every time she says that I'm like, oh, i feel so called out. But when we authentically and genuinely listen to people and it goes back to what I said earlier, because I watched your face when I said it If we stopped mocking each other online but truly stopped falling into it, everything would shift. Like if we just stopped making fun of other people online, the whole thing would turn around. It would do a full 180. I was reading train wreck by Sadie Doyle. Have you read that book?
0:46:17 - Briar
I have not, but I am familiar with it. It's on the list.
0:46:21 - Dr. Bird
And she talks about how much we criticized Britney Spears and Taylor Swift and all these famous people, right, and as women. She's talking about how we, as women, attack other women Right, we don't know, violently, online, without even knowing them. We don't know them Like literally, like. So where do we get the right to attack somebody that we literally have never even spoken to? And I think that is where we need to. We get to. We don't need to, we get to. We have the choice, and I think that's what autonomy and free will and choice is all about. We get to choose every single day, whether we live in curiosity and wonder or we perpetuate the mythology of white supremacist, patriarchal bullshit and say I'm right, you're wrong.
0:47:16 - Briar
The reality is, I think it's uncomfortable, but people don't want to hear that making individual choices that improves their lives is the work That that's what changes everything?
0:47:33 - Dr. Bird
Yeah, and what? and the thing is is I think what it is is they're like Oh gosh, if you move, i got to move. If you shift, no, you don't. No, you don't. If, if I'm going to stop eating sugar because I found out I have a voluptuous liver, i refuse. I refuse to call it a fatty liver. It's, my voluptuous liver does not like the sugar. Nobody else has, even in my own house, has to change. But I'm making that change because I don't want a voluptuous liver, i want a normal sized liver, and so I am making the choice to not eat sugar.
Now let me just tell you there are people in my life, including my own beloved husband, who are like Do you want to eat some ice cream with me? I'm like No, oh, you could just have a little bite. No, actually I don't, i cannot, i will, not. I will eat some sugar free stuff all day long, don't get me wrong. But the thing we do is we think, oh, she's doing something different for her health. Now I got to do something about my health. What am I going to do about my health? No, you don't, you go. Oh, rob, I've been bought high five. Sis, you're doing a great job, good job, if we all just started high fiving each other and being like, oh my God, i'm so, you're amazing, thank you, thank you.
0:48:51 - Briar
So this is very much about the prevailing culture and the patriarchy, but it it builds in this culture of lack. There is not enough Whoo.
0:49:08 - Dr. Bird
God's love it Really. Take a look at a tree. It has plenty of branches, it's got plenty of leaves, it's got plenty of all the things. Take a look at the ocean. Yes, it's changing. Yes, there's a lot of things going on in the ocean and also, guess what? There's plenty of it. So much We. There's no such thing as lack. Lack is absolutely an us versus them mentality. Yes, we can out of both and and it puts us completely and totally into the us versus them Really really thinking like it's this or this and that's it Right.
And and who's defining lack? Who's saying that when I drain my checking account every month because this appears to be the thing that I do that I'm not living a fully abundant lifestyle? Perhaps this is just the cycle of how money comes in and out of my world? You know how long it took me to be like it's okay, Missy, you're not going to die. The earth is not going to open up and swallow you all. You are not an irresponsible twit who doesn't know how to balance your checkbook. This is how your money flows. It took me decades to be like interesting, right. And so abundance is everywhere I look around. One of my favorite meditations I have is this, this meditation, where that I totally came up with, where I was like just look around at everything around you in your room Right now, everybody who's listening to this just look around your room, look at everything you have around you.
0:50:53 - Briar
I'm in my basement. There might be a little too much down here.
0:50:58 - Dr. Bird
But you are not in lack, my friend. I am not. None of us are I look at this, this space that I have created. I have created this space A lot of times. I'm a husband, but let me just say, like I'm sitting here in my office going, wow, it's so beautiful. And every time I notice what I have, what I have, i think, wow, that's pretty rad And I could do with getting rid of some things. Sure, and I have plenty, and we all have plenty, and abundance is everywhere. Here's how I know that there is no such thing as lack. I'm so sad he's. He must have graduated.
We live in a college town And every year the students will come back and this guy would come with a gold plate of Mustang And I would race him because I drive a Camaro. So we had a little moment every year, every year, every year we would find each other in the market of choice parking lot And we would race each other down the street. Was really fun, but don't tell the police. So I would always call my friend Liz and I would always say to Liz Well, the gold plate of Mustang is back as the reminder that there's plenty to go around. And if that is true, briar, then what we are doing to our homeless population is absolute crap. Right, and the only way we're going to have fixed those things and change those things and make a difference for those people is to stop thinking We have to regulate it, put our thumb on it, control it, imprison it and make rules about it. Yes, because those things create lack.
0:52:35 - Briar
They do not create abundance.
0:52:39 - Dr. Bird
And they don't create community or connection or collection, and that is why we are here as human beings, to be in community with the people that we are meant to be in community with, not with everybody. Let me be very clear We are not meant to be in community with everybody. We are meant to be in community.
0:53:05 - Briar
And everyone is all of the time. That's the thing, And we get to build those. We get to choose who is in our communities. We aren't forced to get along with people who we absolutely cannot have conversations with. We get to decide what that looks like.
0:53:26 - Dr. Bird
Yeah, and it's not more regulation And it's releasing and surrendering to the idea that this entire experiment is falling to the ground and that's okay. You're muted, briar.
0:53:43 - Briar
If there was one practice breathing, I think, is big, But if there's something else that you could leave us with in terms of holding space, what would it be?
0:54:00 - Dr. Bird
Allow for every single emotion. We cannot know joy without grief. We cannot know happiness without sorrow. We are here to have the entirety of our human experience, and when we put the armor down and dismantle the fortress, that is when we start living.
0:54:23 - Briar
Perfect, okay. So in two weeks we're going to be talking about grief. Don't look so excited. I'm excited. I make conversations so much. And truly I'm looking forward to it too, because grief is such a hard thing And we really don't have conversations about it often or well, and I think that there is really a lot of room there for people to sit in discomfort.
0:54:56 - Dr. Bird
Mm-hmm yep.
0:54:58 - Briar
And how else, Dr Melissa Bird, can people sit in discomfort with you?
0:55:07 - Dr. Bird
Yay, i'm so glad you asked. I am so excited to be spending the summer hosting healing circles. So I'm doing three different healing circles. In June it is a healing circle for coaches. In July it's a healing circle for managers and business owners and anybody who really works with other people. And in August it's a healing circle for everyone And they're on Sunday afternoons and they're 30 bucks And it's going to be us sitting in circle and doing some creativity and some meditation and some healing, and I'm really excited. It's just gonna be so beautiful. This was like the greatest thing ever. And then you can listen to my podcast. It's called The Thinness Bail with Dr Melissa Bird And it's on all the podcast stations and it is super lovely. And you can also sign up for my newsletter, which is through drmelissabirdcom, And you get a love note in your inbox every week from me And they are lovely, lovely love notes.
0:56:19 - Briar
I have just linked the healing circles in the chat. They'll be in the show notes. Thank you so much. This is gonna be great. I'm so excited for the rest of this And I am excited to see the possibility right. The more people having hard conversations, the more we grow together, and that's what we're here for.
0:56:47 - Dr. Bird
Yep it's good. I'm excited too. Thank you.
0:56:50 - Briar
Y'all. If this is what you're in for, please join us at the Neurodiversity Media Network That is neurodiversitymedianetworkcom. Monthly paid subscription is only $25 and it gets you access to all of our back catalog plus our masterclass series. So when we're done here, we're gonna compile these episodes and put them all in one place with a syllabus and some extra resources, so that you can dive deeper into this work. Come on over and join us. We would love to have you. Thank you so much And we will see you again next time. Y'all Have an amazing day.
Transcribed by https://podium.page
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