0:00:02 - Briar
Hello, welcome. My name is Briar Harvey and this is the Neurodiversity Media Network. Today I'm going to start with a content warning. So Alex has been dealing with some family stuff and we were on hiatus for a while. And this is the one we're coming back to, which is right. So today we're going to be talking about infant loss, miscarriage, stillbirth, the whole gamut. This is something she and I have both a lot of personal experience with And these are hard conversations for people to have and for people to hear. Infant loss is something we do not talk enough about, especially when more than half of women will experience some kind of infant loss in her lifetime And I just that number is staggering to me Staggering. So, since it's been a bit Alex, gently, what is your relationship to this subject?
0:01:32 - Alex
Gently. Yeah, it's one thing that I have to tread lightly with, even when I feel healed. I was telling a friend recently it's like being mindful that you have scabs and that somebody might pick it off Right. So my relationship to this is not only am I a doula in the past I no longer attend births but I support women. Through all of this, i have also held space for passing, as a death doula and as just a human, as a human for someone who needed a human And for myself.
I've experienced it more times than anybody really should, and so I feel it's really important we talk about it So that people understand that they're not fearful of having a voice to something that they've been through. So often we hear, like, the trauma we go through, we don't want to talk about it, we don't want to open it back up, we don't want to. So today I'm trying to hold space for people to understand that they're not alone, because the numbers are staggering, that it's okay to feel and grieve whatever way you want. I'm going to talk about a little bit how I have handled it and what I do for my own processes, and also once that I've witnessed with others that I'm allowed to share. So today those are going to be kind of, and we're going to talk with Briar, who has experience with this. You know too.
0:03:00 - Briar
Yeah, my batting average is three for seven y'all, So like.
0:03:04 - Alex
Yeah, and like I am documented, we'll do that, because they always say that six miscarriages to two earth side. So, yeah, my average is not very good either, but it also leads into like there is happiness and there is understanding and acceptance that comes when we actually grieve. too often we pull back. We pull back, we hold really, really tight and we pretend like it didn't happen. And it's what happens when we do that in our bodies.
and why are women coming to me in their 40s to talk about these things that happened in their 20s, in their teens? and also something I kind of want to touch on It's like this also is in terms of abortions chosen are not chosen. That's still part of the grieving cycle. You're still, no matter what that option or whatever happened, the circumstances, you still grieve. I was telling someone I'm like it's like you pee on a test and you're so fucking excited. You look at it and you're like, what is this? And then it's in the second you've ever had a loss. you immediately go to now, what? what's going to happen now? and the ticking time bomb in your head begins, because you know that now something that you do want is showing that you are pregnant. When is it going to be taken away?
0:04:28 - Briar
Oh right, and having experienced a late term loss at 37 weeks for my youngest, that was the entire pregnancy. Most women, i think, get through the first trimester and at least this was the case for me, even with all of my other earliest earlier losses that I'd get through the first trimester and be like, okay, i can breathe now. And then I had a full term stillbirth and I was like, oh well, never mind, clearly it's all on the table.
0:05:05 - Alex
Right, yeah. And for me personally, because I had miscarriages later, it was like oh, we hit 13 weeks. Everybody says it's fine, it hasn't been fine. Now, what? Now it's not fine, now I don't feel fine. And then I found myself like holding my breath, physically, the tension within me, and then I'd be like you have to breathe, alex, you have to breathe. And we would get simple scans and they'd be like oh, we didn't find the heartbeat, but it's okay. And I'd be like no, you're finding it. Like now, like that's, i don't care about me, you're finding it. They're like well, we don't need to, the baby's fine. And I'm like, because I needed that reassurance.
0:05:49 - Briar
With my youngest, we ended up inducing because I had cholestasis And so I was already sitting there waiting to get to the day to the minute. Like I don't think I can quite articulate what it's like to spend every second of your life in abject terror, yeah, Yeah, and it's.
0:06:18 - Alex
It's like psychological warfare on us because, first of all, we're women. This should be easy. We hear about like don't get pregnant, don't do this, it's so easy to get pregnant, and now we're holding our bodies, praying to make it there. It, there's not really words that can go through it and you grieve, you grieve the what ifs, you grieve the, the excitement. You grieve for feeling guilty, that you are excited, the grief that it may happen, it might not happen. It's just a bundle of everything And often, when women have suffered so much loss, it is hard to be excited about being pregnant period, whether it's healthy pregnancy or you will not automatically think of all the ones that didn't work out And you retain this sense of guilt that you're trying to work through.
0:07:10 - Briar
And I think there's so much pressure societally to be okay and to get over it that even if you want to grieve properly, you are not allowed to do so.
0:07:34 - Alex
No. And for myself the comments were like well, you have two healthy children already.
0:07:40 - Briar
So it's fine. So it's fine, just fine, just get over it.
0:07:44 - Alex
Yeah. And then when I had another miscarriage and I actually hid it, i hid the fact that I had one. My husband knew, but I hid it from everybody else. When it finally came around that I started to talk about it, they were like you never told us. Were you just trying to have a girl? Ouch, yep, wow, yeah. So when that bomb hits, it's like now you're not acknowledging me sharing something that was very intimate and very like I'm trying to grieve. I'm just trying to talk about it. Plus, we're neurodivergent. I need to freaking talk about it now. I can't just sit on it forever. Now it's a matter of was I just trying to get pregnant, to have a daughter? because I have sense.
0:08:31 - Briar
We had. We had a match set, So the fact that I was trying for another child at that point in time was already an issue, because how dare I want to have more than two children? is though other people have any say about your reproductive choices?
0:08:54 - Alex
Cheers Right, well and, like terminology, wise, with doctors here in Canada. It's like when I had my first child, my hysterectomy. They specifically asked me what if one of your children died? Are you trying to have another one? I was. I was blown away. I was shocked. I hear many women talk about. Have you asked your husband? My, oh yeah.
0:09:21 - Briar
In the States here that's, and in many states that's actually mandated like that you can't even choose to sterilize because you might be a hysterical woman who will change your mind later.
0:09:42 - Alex
So you need your permission from your husband, right, yeah, here. Like I hear some people struggling with that. We don't have a. I do know what happens to me. That's not been it. They've always like if you lost a child, what did you want to try again? I'm like blown away. If you've read my medical history, i've been trying my friend for a very long time And if I lose a child, bringing another one into this world would be a blessing. But it's not going to replace what I have, like what I lost.
0:10:13 - Briar
Right, the calculatedness of that kind of statement. If you lose one, you can always have another.
0:10:24 - Alex
I'm not. It goes into terminology. Terminology is wonderful. Science is beautiful. Great, i have a neural brain. I love that there's some science part of it. I love being spiritual, but when you walk into a room and somebody's had a miscarriage and you tell them that they had an abortion, no-transcript.
0:10:43 - Briar
Yeah. Spontaneous abortion Yeah, I reacted to that much the same way that I reacted to geriatric at 37.
0:10:56 - Alex
Yeah, 37. How are we, how is that even calculated? That doesn't make any sense, that that's considered the timeframe one. So many beautiful women are having babies in their 40s, in their 50s, but at 37, when we have a complication, all of a sudden we get categorized into this you're high risk, you have this, all these other issues, and then they start building all these things And often, when we have a child, an infant who is lost, autopsy reports come back and say it happened.
0:11:29 - Briar
We don't know why, yet you our geriatric and you were high risk. Oh, you are lucky to have gotten autopsies. What is something that, despite knowing the cause, we would have had to have? plus a matter can healthcare paid for ourselves?
0:11:48 - Alex
Yeah, And that's why, like, why are we doing this? Why wouldn't we want to help people have closure, have some answers, have some healing, because if you're doing these autopsies and you're learning, like there may be genetic things that have happened that you didn't see before, or hey, we learned something in the name of science to help other mothers, or hey, be an actual human, be a human and honor that. Too often they want to just it's just closed. That's it Right.
0:12:22 - Briar
It's that You know and I think about this. It's the week of Mother's Day. Here in the States and, I think, canada you celebrate at the same time we do, and the number of women who will be grieving this weekend, while they are expected to put a pretty face on it and participate in brunches and pictures and fanfare, is going to be high. I you know, my mom passed 20 years ago. It's been a long time since my mom was around, and Mother's Day it's just such a loaded day for me. Typically, what my husband does is takes the children and leaves me the house and then cooks me a really nice steak for dinner. That's what I value for that day of peace and grief and loss, because it's not a celebration of me as mom. It might be a little for my kids, but it certainly doesn't feel that way for me And truly we're so cruelly neglectful to women, and mothers in particular, in the ways that we make them put a silver lining on everything. Oh for sure.
0:14:09 - Alex
And you know what I'm walking into this week with tons of grief. Not only do I grief like the children I don't have and I actually wrote on Instagram the other day about how I get pissed off about folding laundry, and then I'm immediately sad of the laundry I don't get to fold and the socks I don't get to see And I also lost my mother-in-law this month too, and so not like this month, but her death dates this month. Sorry. Yeah, thank you, and it's really hard because she was such a pillar in our teenage years me and my partner have been together a very, very long time that Mother's Day always feels crappy because it's so close to her death date And she should be here.
I don't feel like celebrating it, so for us it's very much the same. Sometimes he'll just let me sleep in, take the kids and I get a meal, and honestly, i go really slow that day. I can feel myself beginning to shut down and acknowledge that And I just really move in that moment very slow, and I allow myself because I don't want to go and get photos done. I don't want to be paraded around like a prized woman who blessed my partner with three boys. I don't. You know, all these things that are society concocts and makes up for mothers. That's not what we actually need. Most of us actually just need the space to unmask, take off our armor and spend that day just being like nothing. If that's what it needs to be, then that's what we need to be, but it's never been a day that I feel excited to celebrate.
0:15:45 - Briar
And truly not even before, even my first one, because I and I distinctly remember my first Mother's Day, 21 years ago now. I had this tiny little creature my trying to remember had my mom died already? Yeah, she'd already died, And so I was dealing with this grief and loss and still having to go to my mother-in-law's house with a small child. Like none of this is ideal And we really don't prioritize mothers, even on their own day.
0:16:40 - Alex
Yeah, it's about other people. It's about how can we make ourselves look good or good, normal, okay for other people, and the amount of time and patience and energy and healing it takes to just pure friggin' normal for one day. I don't think people grasp that. If we want to talk about spoons, i'm empty, i'm like depleted beyond, empty. And then we talk about relationships with mothers, relationships, whether it's good or bad. It's like that you're compelled to tell your mother that you love them that day or you lost your mother so you don't love them.
0:17:15 - Briar
Oh right, that's a whole other layer of God. Do you have a good relationship with your mother? Do you have a good relationship with your surviving children? Like so many layers and so many expectations, yeah, and the lost piece of this is just so overwhelming, or overwhelmingly quiet in this conversation, right, yeah, and like the thing is is when people work with me, i'm roaring this.
0:17:54 - Alex
I'm like what can we take off your table? What expectations? can we kick it to the side? What do you actually need? to be okay, like if I asked you right now and then what do you want? what do you need? Some of my friends are clients that I've worked with. It's literally sitting in the kitchen with them. We're not doing dishes, we're not even talking, we're just drinking coffee and sitting there. It's the presence of understanding. They don't need to show up as anybody else.
0:18:21 - Briar
Yeah, I truly just the space to exist for a while. And I remember distinctly, because I was already working as a coach when my son died and I remember saying to some coaching friends of mine that I intended to grieve deliberately, which was a wildly applauded sentiment and I don't think even I really understood what that meant. But being allowed to wallow was really important and I did not get nearly enough of that time.
0:19:12 - Alex
And, if I'm completely honest, i did not grieve properly. Not one second, until I had a hysterectomy and my whole pregnancy season, everything was done. I did not grieve, i just put my mask on, kept doing the things, kept talking to people, kept working, kept burning myself the hell out and then expected to show up and be loving and affectionate and want to engage, want to create a baby. With what energy, with what sacredness? because when I want to be intimate, especially for something like that, shouldn't it be fun, shouldn't it be understanding, not just like, okay, let's get it done. We should try and have a baby, because you know that's what we should do and that's what it turns into.
0:20:04 - Briar
Oh yeah, the postpartum expectations. So after my stillbirth, the thing about stillbirths and there are a lot they don't tell you about stillbirths. Let me count the ways, the things that I wished that I had known. Here's one Did you know that when you're pregnant, this tendon tightens up in your arm so that it can help support the extra weight of your belly? You know what straightens that tendon back out? Having a baby to carry? It's just a physiological thing that happens. Nobody told me. No one told me that I was going to walk around feeling like T-rex for six months because my arms didn't straighten back out until I went to physical therapy afterwards.
0:20:57 - Alex
Yeah, and they probably did not tell you that any medication or anything that you did also caused that to be stronger and more painful, and that's where we hold it. They don't talk about that and it's so fast There's. so I understand the medical system is overrun. I understand those flaws. I understand they worked their butts off I've never said that but their bedside manner and the way that they treat people during those moments where we need soft and tender women. we need women in those moments. We need other women who have been through it, who will hold this space, who will not tell you to like okay, go have a shower, get over it. We need that community. We need people who understand And when I say women, it's like those people, those people who've been there. right, we need that because nobody else, no doctor who has never been through it, will ever understand.
0:21:53 - Briar
They can witness it happening, but they don't understand But they don't and they don't know how to carry that space. I will say I give my hospital a lot of credit for they had little leaves that they stuck on the lost mom's doors So that the nurse wouldn't come in happy, chipper and cheerful. And I will say that made a huge difference in my recovery process was that at least in the immediate aftermath my hospital made some effort at trying to hold space for the grief.
You know, I birthed him and he was kept in the room with me for as long as I wanted him there And we, though I've never once looked at them, we did get someone from now I lay me down to sleep to come in and take photos with us, yeah, and for us in the print store hospital here they actually have like a room that's just for that.
0:22:58 - Alex
They'll move you there. It's at the end of a hallway, nobody knows. There's a sign, there's beautiful. There's like a glass, glass window. That's really pretty And it's just like a different area And you're allowed to stay there as long as you want with your child. There's no rush, they don't come in there. But it makes a big difference because you're right, because people walking in all cheerful, like let me see your baby, you're like no baby. Or if your baby's born, you're like it's not the way you want it to be. Right. That's the thing. It's like it's not the expectations that other people want it to be. And even when you have a miscarriage, like we're put on maternity floor here.
0:23:39 - Briar
Right, that's the way it is here too, and I know so. I went to UNMC, which has a very advanced mother baby ward now, and they do have a specific part of the wing now for loss, so that you don't have to even hear the babies now.
0:24:06 - Alex
And that's the torture for me when I had a miscarriage. They're so little like it's so early, even in seconds trimester it's very early And you know there's so many like protocols here in Canada that's different from there. And so, like 14 weeks, you're in a room, have nothing to show fit, my boobs hurt and there's babies crying all around me And then the nurse comes in and goes you've had a DNC. How are you feeling? Pretty much what you think times a million worse. Right, like it.
And they're like do you want to eat? How about we go for a walk? I don't want to do anything. I want to crawl in a hole and be allowed to just be not okay, and I think that's a big thing is working as a doula and a support for what it's like. I'm like not that you need to hear it, but I'm validating your allowance. You, you go, grief, but like keep a lifeline out. You need somebody to touch base with you. I'll be that person. You need something. You need someone to come in there. You need food delivered. You need I got you, but keep your lifeline out and feel whatever you need to feel.
0:25:19 - Briar
You know, i think there is. I remember, after I'll died, i did a lot of research in the grieving traditions of other cultures. Right, obviously, dia de Muerto, there is a specific day for the babies. In Japanese cemeteries, they have a communal area where you can go and grieve the lost young ones. It's beautifully maintained And there are there are so many other cultures with actual allowances and measures for grief, and I don't know what it is about North America, but we have really, really let this go And the harm that this causes is immense. Yeah.
0:26:23 - Alex
And I don't understand why we've come so far from it. We celebrate birth, we celebrate birthdays, we celebrate new beginnings, we are trying to honor when people pass. Yet when we lose a child or we have a miscarriage, the common things that I hear, which is not okay, and what I'm about to say is not okay, but is yeah, lots of us had it. Lots of us Always have another.
Yep, you can have another one. Or are you guys going to try next month because your hormones are up? That's a good chance that you'll get pregnant again.
0:26:57 - Briar
I think the one that made me most angry and I mean passionately, like flames up the side of my face, angry was this is God's plan.
0:27:13 - Alex
Okay, so might, as God wouldn't give you what you can't handle.
0:27:17 - Briar
Oh, that one is equally devastating, right, like somehow I deserved this. Then Thanks, tell me how you really feel about me, yeah.
0:27:31 - Alex
And how can we say that to somebody? How can we pass that on? How can we say like I would never, ever. I make comments when my son's being crazy and I'm like, oh god, couldn't give me what I can't handle because he's being wild and funny and whatever, but I would never think that, like sexual abuse, children loss, any kind of loss, physical trauma, is because of something that you have chosen. Like you're like I'm gonna get up today and choose this, this is great.
0:28:03 - Briar
It's really fascinating to me the ways in which this particular sort of victim blaming is embedded into so many facets of our culture, because you get this obviously with Christians, for example, but you're gonna get it from the law of attraction folk on the other side too, right, because you called that shit in. I wonder why we have decided that this type of loss, or any loss must be, must be something that you carry personally and that you cannot distribute that out to the collective.
0:28:51 - Alex
No bad vibes, man, no but even can I ask you did you feel like you had to carry it for your husband in your household as well?
0:28:59 - Briar
Oh gosh yes, and there were some interesting things there too, like full term stillbirth, so I had to carry it for everyone. But there was some real weird shit that happened for and to my husband. It was as though he didn't lose a child at all. There were very few people that actually considered his grief or his loss in any way and I there were some times that he was somewhat resentful of the attention that I was getting and I can't really say as I blame him because he didn't physically lose a baby. He should have been at work the next day.
0:29:42 - Alex
And see, that's the kind of shit that happened in our home, because it was like my husband would say, well, we, alex and I, lost a baby, and they'd be like, no, alex did, alex had the miscarriage. And my husband would be like, no, we lost it. We are a partnership, it is mine too, but there's this weird like if a child is a born and the dad doesn't see it, that it's not his. This is something that I see very often. It's. It's this weird complex. That's not all of people, but society really pushes. That's like, oh, husband won't be connected to the child till they see it. They're holding it and that's theirs. Until then, you're doing all the work.
0:30:23 - Briar
My husband used to play soccer through my belly with my unborn children and, like I, go to sleep with him and Al poking each other through my tummy like he didn't experience loss at all would be shocking to me, and truly it's that attitude that I think diminishes and demoralizes fatherhood into the, in the same way that we venerate father's babysitting their children right like if they're not an equal partner in the thing, then it is both okay for them to be absent and also okay for them to be mediocre.
0:31:25 - Alex
I have so much issues with that, like I have women who will say to this day, be like, oh, jesse was babysitting the kids. It's like no, they're his kids. He's just watching his kids and our relationship. He works away half the time, so I'm not just babysitting while he's gone. There are kids, he's watching his kids. He's a damn good father. So right, it's like this while he provides. This is another one in here. Well, my husband works a lot. He provides, so when he's home, i take care of everything to make sure he's. And this is from a grieving woman and I'm like but you're holding this grief and you're holding these rules that he probably doesn't even want to play like. Most of these men are just wanting to be a part of it. And yes, when we're grieving, they want to fix it, they want to know how they can, but they're just, they're begging to be a part of it. But society tells us we have to handle it.
0:32:22 - Briar
And, let's not forget, we have to handle it in a specific length of time. There is a period of acceptable grief and loss, and then anything over that is. Shouldn't you have moved on by now?
0:32:41 - Alex
or my favorite. You're being a bit dramatic, don't you think, right? yeah, of course I am, thank you, yeah. And then you see all this research and it's like burnout takes two years to get over. How can you equate burnout and grief that? so you're gonna tell me that grief should it ranges from one to two years is what research says, but burnout takes over two years.
0:33:08 - Briar
You know, and we really do not talk about the physical toll of grief, right, and I'd I'd experienced this physical loss and my body wasn't working, but my heart was also broken and truly it's a separate thing that requires separate care.
0:33:40 - Alex
Yes, and for me it's like my body wouldn't stay pregnant. So then I'm having this internal anger battle in my grief because I'm like you betrayed me. That's how I feel. Right, my body betrayed me. It should have been able to do this.
0:33:55 - Briar
I'm made for this. I was born for this. They've been telling me my whole life.
0:34:02 - Alex
Yeah, oh, you're so curvy, you're gonna be able to have babies, no problem, actually, it's not no problem, right? so there's that betrayal. So then you're adding into your grief cycle now this betrayal, this, and then it's like an abandonment, because now I want to abandon my body, i don't want to be within it. And then I have this loss which is doesn't. It's like a ripple effect across everything else. And then I'm angry because now I'm expected to get over all these things. And then no, my body doesn't just bounce back. I was actually pregnant, but things changed. And then I go through it. It's like then I'm not sleeping, then my heart is broken. How do I hold my heart? then my spirituality is cut off, because how can I believe to be connected to something when I'm going through all of this? and I was like I don't have enough support to heal all these aspects within myself.
0:34:58 - Briar
And then I remind myself, right, like I just don't, i just and so I want to spend a good chunk of our time today actually talking about what the answers are here, both for the individual and for the community. Where do you want to start?
0:35:26 - Alex
that's a good question, because I'm like we have to talk about all these things and I don't even know where to start, because I feel like it's such a balloon effect now and I feel like it's like an. It's that balloon. We knows in the room that nobody wants to poke and all I want to do is break it so that it bursts.
0:35:42 - Briar
So we know that it's there and it's okay all right, so let's start with what to do when someone you love has lost a child that's a good start.
0:36:01 - Alex
I think we should start okay. So, for my personal experience, the things that I valued were as much as I know your story I just the constant flood of the like. Apologies, for it was actually hard. I valued people bringing me a meal because I didn't. It was something I didn't have to do, being very mindful, asking them do you want to talk? is there anything I can do for you in terms of like, do you need any supports? because, if I'm honest, when you're feeling that raw and tenderness, you're not going to reach out. You are you're. You're fighting that survival mode of like we are shutting down now. Be mindful of the words you use. That's the big one. Very mindful, because your words have power when we are wrong, when people are wrong.
0:36:55 - Briar
I had a friend who would call me when she got to the grocery store and she just take me shopping with her, like going through the aisles prattling away about what she was buying. There was no expectation that I communicate or have an opinion or anything. She just call and sit and share space, and that was incredibly valuable.
0:37:27 - Alex
I for local people in my community. we've actually set up, like we call it, a meal train where we don't even talk to them. We just each assign a date. go to the front doorstep, the hot meals there. there's no need to talk back and forth, there's no need for anything. 90% of the time the women want to hug for me, that's it. I drop off a meal and then, if they spotted me, they just want to hug. We don't need to talk about things. She doesn't need to pretend They don't. You're right. The value in just like tagging along. I also had a friend. I'd pick up, we'd turn some really loud music on and I would drive her up for a half hour. Windows down, no, nothing. She drank her tea. The music was really, really loud. It was enough that she felt out of her own head for 30 minutes.
0:38:15 - Briar
I saw a fascinating meme just this morning about how autistic people hate loud noises and also love loud music. There's really something to that sensory stimulus.
0:38:32 - Alex
I get so overwhelmed by loud noises, but loud music that is something that I like listening to helps me drown all of that stuff out 100% and I've noticed in grief and even people who are passing, music and sounds that are calming and stimulant to them actually has been proven to bring their pain levels down.
0:38:55 - Briar
That doesn't surprise me, given what we know about how music actually affects the sensory areas of the brain. This is another recommendation that I will make. When someone has experienced loss, the sensory stuff is the shit that nobody ever thinks about, but it's almost the most important. How can you make good smells, good sounds, good tastes, nice touches? I had a friend that crocheted me the softest little shawl and it wasn't warm but it was soft and it felt like love. I could pull it out and wrap it around my body and it felt like being hugged. My husband. After we left the hospital, the first thing we did was go to a Walmart and buy me a stuffed animal, because I knew that. And now you can find them frequently weighted, which again helps with the tendons in the arm, because I had to have something to hold. And Bob still sleeps with me today.
0:40:11 - Alex
Yeah, for me I've made lap blankets like you've been talking about. They're ones that are keeping a little bit warm, feel like a hug feel. The sensory stuff is really big. I noticed that, like for a lot of women, because our bodies are whether we've had infant loss or miscarriage, our bodies are very stimulated, the hormones are raging, everything is very stimulated. So when we offer things like a house coat, some soft socks if they can handle it, not all of us like it, but some of us like even for 10 minutes it grounds us and then they're off. That's fine. Those kind of stimulants to bring us back down, to ground us back into our body because we're trying to escape, we are trying to escape and we do, we don't want anything. So what can we do to check us back into our body kind of ground us a little bit and make us feel safe? I think the biggest thing is creating safety spaces.
0:41:04 - Briar
As someone with mental health issues for most of my life. The relationship between grief and depression and anxiety is pretty interlinked for me, but I can say that I appreciated those sensory things more than anything else. I've always been very against cut flowers because I cannot handle the smell of dying flowers and I knew that if I was given cut flowers they would sit there and die and I would do nothing about them. And that is exactly what happened, right. So know what your limits are around personally, how you would appreciate being approached, and then see if you can't fill that gap.
0:42:09 - Alex
But also understand what you're able to give.
You don't need to be everything for everyone else. Even if you love this person, you understand they're going through something. You don't have to empty your whole cup out for them. They would. To be honest, none of us would want that anyway. That's right. Am I able to sit in their sadness without judgment? Can I create that safety space? No, i'm not in a place where I can do that. It's not because I'm trying to be judgy, i just don't have enough, like I'll be over simulated. Okay, what can I do in regards to that, outside of giving too much of myself?
0:42:43 - Briar
And I feel like there are so many ways to contribute in this arena that don't require, like I recognize, not everyone is good with grief and not everyone holds space in the same way, but you can do some dishes, do a load of laundry. Take the kids out for a little while. if there are older children, there are absolutely ways to contribute, to be involved, that don't require you to sit in the muck. if that's not a thing that you can do, Absolutely.
0:43:20 - Alex
But I think being honest with yourself just as much as we have to be honest when we're grieving. I know someone who lost one of two twins and what she needed was someone to hold one of the twins, the twins and so that's what I did. We didn't talk, i just held the baby. She laid on the couch, sad, whatever, and I just held the baby for her. And it was a set time because I said, hey, can I just come in and I'll hold the baby.
If you need dishes done, if you want laundry done, i'll just do that for you. If you want to take a shower, you need a bath? you want me to grab your book, like I got you? whatever you need, that's the simplest way because we're creating this space of they don't have to show up, they just get to be. And the more that we create these spaces where we don't have to show up them, it moves into like when we have a loss, then we acknowledge that we have a loss, then we start naming these children we lost and these lives we lost and we start honoring them. Then we almost celebrate them because they're still a part of our story and it's not weird. It's not weird to love a part of yourself that is not here anymore.
0:44:36 - Briar
Yeah, and I think that when it comes to caring for yourself, there is no right way to grieve. I have always been. It was a piece on Reddit, like 12 years ago, that stuck with me all of these years. That grief is a series of waves and when the losses knew it's hard and fast and they come all of the time and you don't know when they're coming and you feel like you're drowning all of the time and over time they get slower and slower, but then things happen anniversaries, important events, mother's Day and those waves come rushing back in and the only difference is is that you, you're a little bit more prepared for those, but it's still grief, it's still loss.
I so this past year would have been the 8th anniversary of my son's death. It was the first year that I'd ever made a cake for him, which was something that I had wanted to do for many years. But the day comes around and I'm not fucking baking. So I made it work last year and will continue on forever after, by pre-baking the thing, throwing it in the freezer and pulling it out the day of, and then I just frosted it and we had a cake like there are you get to decide what your traditions are. You get to decide what has meaning to you and you get to decide the ways in which you grieve, now and forever baby.
0:46:42 - Alex
Yeah, and if anyone ever tells you you're grieving wrong, they could go away because they have no idea your process. I always say like, whatever we're going through heavy trauma stuff I'm like leave a lifeline means that know who your safe person is. Have one person where, if it's getting too dark and swirly and you feel like you're drowning a little bit, you can just even just like a code word peach that I know that you're not doing so good, i know to check in in the next couple days, just knowing that you still have that line to someone who you feel grounded to. And safety will hold that space for you. Otherwise, grieve how you're gonna grieve. If you're gonna be really sad, then be really sad. If you're gonna be angry, remove yourself away from your children and go be angry. Do it in places that make sense and you feel safe while you're doing it.
And but telling people you're G, you're just so sad, no shit, like really. Of course I am, but for for us I planted trees, so I have trees and I'm like a lilac tree and I have those things and they remind me of what I've been through. But it doesn't change because every year I don't know about you, but sometimes it's like the time of year and the certain smell reminds me, like I should have had a birthday this time of year for someone, and even with our adoption, his birthday is when I had a loss. There would have been a child born on that time. And it's this beautiful Karmic closure, beautiful this, that I have with that. But I still remember like I would be up, we would have six kids up in this house. It would be wild, but it That's what it would be right.
0:48:28 - Briar
And I think that There's a real Privilege in being able to choose those touch points. So I have a Little footprint. Obviously, this never comes off. I wear this all of the time. All of these charms are very significant to me. Whatever you decide, allow it to be as meaningful as you need it to be. Yes, and figure out ways to Make it Easier, if possible, because this is grief. Like it's my birthday cake. I wanted to celebrate his birthday, yeah, but I'm not doing it, and Buying a gluten-free cake at a bakery is hit or miss right, yeah.
But you also get to tell people what you need Is. This is the biggest part, especially as it's ongoing, because You're going to be given depending on the type of loss. If it's a miscarriage Society, you get a month. If it's a stillbirth or an early term loss, you get Three months.
Being generous right. You lost a real baby, so I guess we're gonna give you a little bit more space. But but trust me when I tell you I was still not okay when I was pregnant two years later, and Being pregnant made everything so much worse.
0:50:26 - Alex
It's like a delay, is it? did you find that?
0:50:28 - Briar
like you got through Cycle and then I was like, ha ha, now we're gonna wait for you to get, like now I'm pregnant and and not only am I terrified about Losing this one the entire time, but I also get to spend that time grieving all of the things that I did wrong The first time.
0:50:51 - Alex
Yeah, and I feel like I want to share something because I don't think I've ever shared it. I want to just say it because it's like we're talking about this. I feel like I spent so much time being sad being pregnant with my second that I don't even remember enjoying our pregnancy.
0:51:05 - Briar
I Don't even remember I didn't, and I I have real regrets about that now. I I didn't get any maternity photos like. I have almost no photos of me with that pregnancy because And, and and he's six years old, y'all. It's not like I didn't have a digital camera in my phone at that point in time. There's no reason why I shouldn't have pregnancy pictures. But I do not have pregnancy pictures and I feel a real type of way about that now.
0:51:39 - Alex
Yeah, and I feel like my, even though my delivery was really good with our second and I healed up like it was natural, it went quick, no issues. Out of the hospital that night I spent the next six weeks like in the darkest space of my life with my baby. That was right here I. It was so dark and I look back and I have this grief now because I'm like I Missed out on my time being sad And it's valid, but I I missed out on that, mm-hmm.
0:52:09 - Briar
Yeah, i had. I. I had pretty wild PPD after he was born and I was. They were attempting to medicate me, but they were giving me a saraquil which makes you sleep for 15 hours.
0:52:25 - Alex
Yeah, I was gonna say it's real Yeah.
0:52:28 - Briar
Oh, so I had to quit that cold turkey because I fell asleep one night while breastfeeding and that was not safe. No, like. Just the panic that that caused was absolutely insane. I And and there was no American medical system here, but for you too, i'm sure not a lot of follow-up. There was no Like how you doing at a week, three weeks, six weeks, three months None of that there were no touch points of. Are you doing Okay? are you healing? as a person We know not only do you have this small child, but there's also this huge grief about The ones that didn't make it, and none of that exists.
0:53:29 - Alex
No, and for us it's like they do this six week. If baby's good, they're done. They'll ask you. If you're sad, they'll say everybody's depressed for me. They're like well, you have anxiety and you have dyslexia and like all these other things, so that's just, it's just heightened. I was like sleeping beside my baby every night, watching him not sleeping, making sure he's breathing, because I have this huge grief, making sure my baby is okay and not like I didn't let people hold him.
0:53:57 - Briar
That boy did not touch the ground for a year and a half and truly. Even my husband had to pry him out of my arms right.
Like there was. There was a lot of feeling about well, now I have this one and he was because we induced early because of My colea stasis. He was a little over five pounds When he was born Like I thought I was going to damage him. He was so tiny. It was just as terrifying, in totally different ways, and there was no Care or feeling for me at all or anyone who really said, hey, you're doing okay, like Nothing no, and for me, like I baby, like I had an ergo I baby, wore this boy till he was like three.
0:54:59 - Alex
He's fine, like he's fully capable, but I was like No, i'm not touching him, nobody's touching him.
0:55:05 - Briar
taking him is mine Exactly, and that anxiety is not healthy.
0:55:11 - Alex
Let's be very clear about that, we're not, we're not Advocating this.
0:55:16 - Briar
No, what we're saying is that that is pretty typical, perfectly to be perfectly honest about it, and the fact that no one ever really Said anything, oh and, and not even other mothers who had been through loss.
0:55:35 - Alex
That, like this, is not a conversation We are having no, and what I need to Real, what I want society to realize, is we need to flip the script. People who are Super's depressed, people are super grieving, are actually, most of the time, are not gonna reach out. They're surviving. They have spoons to survive. That's what they're doing. So how can we reach out in a way That's not like intrusive, that's not, but still letting them know Hey, you're here because if you're struggling with any of this stuff, yes, you should seek support.
Yes, there's some beautiful counselors out there and mentors and womanhood and doulas, and we do all offer postpartum support. We just don't talk. It's not talked about. It's not talked about enough. We need to be giving people lifelines. I will use this word till the. We need to give them a lifeline. No, i'm not coddling, you know. I'm not trying to change things, but I'm letting you know that, like, if you need to be pulled back, i'm here for you, for that And it's. I wish people would have said to me Alex, you look like you haven't slept in three days. Can I hold your child for you, because I know that you're stressing out and that doesn't seem healthy. No, it took six years later, where I was like whoo child that had some bad postpartum. Nobody said a. Thing.
0:56:51 - Briar
You know, i think The more we have these conversations, the easier they become to disseminate to other people, and I am Optimistic that as we go forward, we will be able to Enact some of the changes that are required. But y'all this starts with your village.
0:57:22 - Alex
Yeah 100%.
0:57:24 - Briar
You have to be the change you wish to see in the world. On this one in particular, no one is supporting new mothers because They've had a baby, so that's all that we care about.
0:57:43 - Alex
Or they have a family who's gonna take care of them. And the reality is is our generation of people don't have that. We don't have the act who would show up with the mom. We don't have those relationships. So how can we build this community within each other? How can you stand in anti and fold a thing of laundry So she doesn't have to look at it? How do you, how do we take? the biggest other thing I wanted to say is, like, how do we remove, like this validation stuff where it's like well, my grief is not as bad as her grief because I lost it.
0:58:14 - Briar
Oh, wow, that's a whole fucking thing. Yeah, i distinctly remember in lost groups that Mothers who had had an early term loss from something like six Yes would say things like well, at least I got to hold my baby, because I sure didn't, as though. But but it was a weird competitive vibe, because that's all we know how to do is compete with each other over perceived slides, perceived loss.
0:58:54 - Alex
Yeah, or to just like Project. So we're like, oh no, it's okay, you're allowed to be sad. I can't right. I've only had with carriages and I've only had this, but you have a bigger loss. So let's, let's focus on you. And it's almost condescending because it's like Wow, it's the grass, the competitive, the. My trauma trumps your trauma, so my traumas better than yeah The the trauma Olympics. Yeah, it's not a game.
0:59:21 - Briar
I'm interested in playing.
0:59:22 - Alex
No, you've had a loss. You've had a loss. And here I just want to be very clear. When we talk about loss, i'm talking about if you can't have children, if You every month stared a negative test My love, your loss is valid. If you have had ectopic, if you've had miscarriages, you've had stillborn, you've had infant loss because of sins and other things, if you have lost a child period, it does not matter. You have loss. You have this loss because your motherhood journey doesn't look the way it should According to society, but it's valid and you need to honor it and grieve and be whatever you need to be in those moments, because It doesn't matter.
A loss is a loss And so the more that we focus on that, the more we take away The other things. We look at it as a loss is a loss and we're honoring people, we're building community, we're sharing to love and hold each other, not to judge, not to have put expectations or fill other people's Expectations and priorities like. You got to get this, you got to act a certain way. We're not doing that anymore. It's off the table. Your loss is a loss and whatever you need to grieve and however you need to do, that Is the way that you need to do it, but you need to put a lifeline out and have supports in place.
1:00:40 - Briar
Y'all. If you need help, asking for help. I have a whole show about that. If you need local support, find Alex. Sorry if you're not local to Alex, but you could also find Alex, because I'll help you out.
1:00:57 - Alex
I do have a lot of resources, i do have a lot of connections. I'm sure we can find something for you, and you know what? even I can help you.
1:01:07 - Briar
And finally, if you have questions about Building your local community, please do let us know. We are here to support you in this endeavor. It matters, and We hope that You can find what you need.
1:01:28 - Alex
But also, whatever that is is okay, whatever you need is okay thanks.
Transcribed by https://podium.page
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