Maiden, Mother, Wise One w/ Alex Watt

welcome welcome you are listening to the neurodiversity media Network this is Maiden mother wise one with your co-host Alex Watts and me Briar Harvey today we are talking about birth and I think this is such a loaded topic right Alex so so much happens in this short period of time and we don't talk about it we talk about pregnancy we talk about babies we do not talk about birth y'all we don't want to hear it we don't want to know we don't want to have this conversation so I'm really excited to get into it and talk about some of the structural pieces and I think we're gonna have an amazing time with us today is the amazing Jessica Randall she is here to talk about her birth experiences and I think between the three of us we've got a range so it will be a good time Jessica please feel free to introduce yourself tell us about you yes um thanks for having me um I have three children that range from 11 down to six and I have two boys and a girl and um my birthing experiences I think we're all really positive but I definitely did have a few things that kind of came up that I don't think um is talked about very much amongst like women yeah and I think that's like part of the main reason I've also known you for 10 years like we had babies together that was the beginning of everything right and so we also had a very different birthing experience and very different healing from the birth as well so I think it's really great to have you on and I'm really happy that you agreed to do it because you have a lot to talk about so I was thinking about like before we had kids how did you feel about birth and like what were your thoughts around it before we even tried to have kids um I always knew I wanted to be a mom I knew I wanted to have lots of kids um I think the thing that stands up to me that's the most shocking is I the first time I ever saw somebody breastfeed was when I was at work and I worked in a hair salon and I was so appalled that she had the audacity to breastfeed in public uncovered and as Alex knows I'm a really big Advocate now for breastfeeding in public uncovered and like you just kind of baby needs to eat and you have to live life so away we go um I think that's like the biggest change in difference from where I started to where I ended up yeah and like for me as well I knew that it was always a natural thing and I always knew that I want to advocate for other women to breastfeed or just have children in general and then there was almost like a jealousy aspect because I was starting to struggle with having kids and I wasn't sure if I could right so for me it was like well all these people are having kids and I don't know if I can so I had like a little bit of a jealousy moment before we had our first son so that did come up for me right so I was like good for you right but and now like obviously I'm not on that side of the fence anymore so yeah knowing that like do you want to talk about your first pregnancy and kind of like the process of it how it went for you because that was that's like our that's always the first one right yeah yeah um I didn't really know anybody else who was having kids at the time my husband's sister she already had two kids and they were older they were like five and three when when I met him um so it's kind of just me I was really young I was 20 when I got pregnant with my first um we just kind of were like hey do you want to do this and he was like yeah sure and you know before we knew it I was pregnant it happened really fast and um my pregnancy was pretty smooth I think I had a lot of nausea and just kind of like discomforts of usual pregnancy nothing that really stood out um looking back on it now I think I had like preeclampsia closer to the end of my pregnancy that kind of went like unnoticed um and I think that kind of led to a few other like complications in my laboring process

so knowing that now what do you think were the like your red flags for that because I want to share mine too when I like because I found out later obviously that was the process but what do you think were your red flags Looking Back Now to kind of guide you through that you had that I was really swollen I was really swollen and like I remember I had an aunt who kind of like brought it up to me and was like are you okay like this is not normal and um at that time in my life I was the kind of person that would just kind of turtle in at that and I was like oh am I doing something wrong is it me and I didn't I was too afraid to bring it up to my Midwife at the time and um I mean that and then I I gained like a ton of weight when I was pregnant with him but I just remember the swelling and then I would see like spotted dots everywhere and I guess like Vision issues aren't a part of pregnancy but being my first I just kind of was like oh everything's this is normal and yeah this is normal and that is clearly not normal but like the ways in which we normalize all of these things because we're just supposed to put up with it it's supposed to be a part of the process that was normal that was normal not normal yeah and I feel like because there's so much of this like oh well congratulations you're having a baby this is so exciting like you're bringing life into this world this is so exciting oh don't worry you like your it'll be worth it all these conversations that we hear from other people instead of be like hey that's actually not normal do you need help do you have any questions and even when you go to the doctor they're like walking and they're like okay you good did you check your weight are you good okay I gotta go that's that's the amount of times that they generally give you if they find a heartbeat for the baby they're like everything's good meanwhile yeah we don't know that everything's good right like there's all these conversations and so for me my first pregnancy I was super sick I was sick like more times in the day than I was okay and I was like oh and then everyone's like no that's just normal and I was like normal throwing up 12 times a day this is normal and then it went on dicleton and I was like that's not helping at all and I was even more sick so then my doctor got me off that and then I spent four or five months spotting blood and puking wondering am I going to stay pregnant I'm hearing conversations like well this is normal looking back I know that I had a hemorrhage on My Placenta because I got to see it after but they don't like they're like no this you're just spotting it's okay it's good your baby's good but it's these conversations that we need to have with other women like to help them know that they're not alone and actually it's not really normal and if it's happening to more of us we should be talking about it and how can we advocate for that and so what is a big part of it right is the advocacy part of it how do we take these experiences collectively and move them out into the greater world and have more of a conversation about it yeah and I feel like medical is such an important part of things and they like they're wonderful but there's an aspect of it that they're missing when it comes to Midwifery because my experience is in the hospital versus being with a midwife are polar opposite completely different and so because you had a midwife every time Jessica um for the first part of for the first 14 weeks of my first pregnancy I had a doctor and then I switched to a midwife because of some complications that I had with him yeah and so what was your experience in flipping halfway through because because I want to share my two out there but oh um so with my doctor I was off he kept pushing for me to have an abortion um up and and I I believe it was around 14 weeks when I switched over to a midwife and I went in for I think it was like around 11 weeks up to like hear the heartbeat and he's like oh I can't find it so like whatever just be on your way and I was so fortunate that my husband was there with me and he was like this is not okay you need to make sure like send her for an ultrasound she's quite worried like you need to do something for her and he was like oh no no it's fine we'll just we'll just see if it happens next time or maybe she's miscarrying and all will be fine and um even something as simple as like I had um just like a yeast infection and he was like oh well when you take this medicine it'll abort your baby and that was like the last straw and then my husband kind of like put his foot down he's like you need to find someone else because nine months of this it's not it's not okay and um I was really fortunate that where I was working his cousin had a client who was a midwife and she heard this story and she's like I'll make the room for you so which I'm so grateful that they did that for you because the language when I was bleeding constantly with my first pregnancy was a similar to the same thing they were like well if you're gonna lose it you're going to lose it there's nothing we can do we can't help you you're just gonna have to ride it out and see meanwhile knowing now it's like well I didn't I had extremely low hormones and I'm lucky that I even had a baby it's like right it's like all these things that I know now but dealing with the doctor that was just kind of like well we can't do anything to help you so just go home and make yourself comfortable that was the conversation

pretty much it's like uh we don't want to touch it because it's gonna we're gonna have to be human and we're gonna have to be very kind to you so you just go home and make yourself comfortable instead of like navigating is the baby okay am I okay what kind of services can you provide actually I'm the one that needs the support right now too we're so often like we were talking about it's like if baby's good then it doesn't matter or if it's right it's like we have to navigate more of well is the mother okay is this actually like something why are you insinuating that just because I'm young I don't want to have kids right because that's that's very it's like you don't know my situation you're just being judgmental based off what you're seeing in front of you in this moment not my whole right so it's that conversation of things and then so what was your postpartum like with your friends um it was really good I think um I had a lot of family support on both sides it was everybody was really excited about us having a child and I felt support through family through community and I made a lot of new connections and friends after having kids that since becoming a mother I've never felt the loneliness that I think I like that I read about on on blogs and and hear about a lot in groups is that motherhood can be very lonely but that has not been my experience

for me because we became friends like right when we had kids right for me yeah we not like laked up then I don't know if my mental health would have been the way that it was because I knew that you were the type of person that we could just sit in the kitchen let our kids play and there's dishes and everything everywhere and we would drink coffee and you were cool with that there was no expectations of like let's go out and do something dramatic and it was always just like let's just create these old ways of connecting with people because that's what it is like our friendship has been this it's really like a Sisterhood but traditional like go to the park do these things and we talked about that recently it's not so much as like let's buy each other things or do that kind of aspect it's like bring your kids back together to have memories and childhood that like a lot of us are lacking right so I'm grateful that so I just want to say thank you for that I'm not allowed to make you cry I know so I am grateful for that um so with the second one your girl what was that one like your um my pregnancy was good it was different um before in between my first and my second I had a miscarriage and were you it was that was devastating so it was kind of like um I remember my both my Midwife and my Doula telling me to wait before trying again and looking back I wish I would have heeded that advice a little bit more but it was kind of like I just want a quick fix to feel better so we got pregnant like right away and then there was like an element of I guess kind of like the like I've always like wanting all my children to be earth side but knowing if I had if that miscarriage pregnancy had gone through then I wouldn't have my daughter right and so it's kind of this tug like pull back and forth of I I don't really know how to explain that but I think what you're saying and I know Brian understands that too yeah yeah wanting both but understanding you can't have both and um so I definitely dealt with that a lot in that pregnancy also we moved when I was seven months pregnant so there was a lot of stress um and then I ended up with gestational diabetes so more stressed and then I was hoping to have a home birth with her and knowing that that wasn't going to happen was hard to take um and she was giant like she was a 10 pound baby so I'm glad I had her at hospital and not at home but um the pregnancy like I think I was about like the six month Mark when I realized that I had a lot of anxiety and a bit of like postpartum I guess it's not postpartum I think so pregnant but like a little bit of depression kind of setting in and feeling the difference of there being a lot of community when I was pregnant with my first and a lot of just kind of being dropped and kind of like eh you're a mom and it's not so exciting anymore that you're having kids and everyone's lives kind of went on without me and um and it was kind of like okay I don't that sense of like maybe I don't want to say like attention and being important but like just not feeling like people were excited for us yep and I think that was hard to take especially because you hear so much about the second one's harder than the first and yeah yeah yeah definitely although we are friends our like our history and this kind of Womanhood life that we're going through very much parallel because for me it's like you had your miscarriage and I had just had mine and like we saw the same OB within the same two months and it was like that like I wanted to share with you but then all of a sudden you went through it and we had just shared that you got pregnant it was like this back and forth in both of our hearts right but I'm really grateful that we've always had like the open dialogue to talk about it but I was the same as you because we had so many miscarriages between Parker and brew and that I didn't even want to tell people I was pregnant I remember peeing on a stick and being like Oh no because it was positive and I was like oh no and it's because like that huge part of me is constantly knowing that I was losing and you're not staying pregnant was like what so then I I remember just like telling you and being like I'm pregnant and then you would be like yeah I'm like I'm scared to get excited I'm scared to tell somebody that we're pregnant because I'm scared to tell somebody that we're not again and nobody was talking about it around me it seemed like I was like this the only person who did have miscarriages I was the only one struggling and so then when I got pregnant through my giant ruin uh it was so different it was I was still super super sick but it was like I knew that he stuck and I had gotten pregnant with him after I had a miscarriage it was three months after so it was quite soon too and I was told not to but then my Midwife was like do it and I'm grateful she did but I had that same morning for you because I remember being 20 weeks pregnant and in my friend's birth as a doula for the first time I'm watching her Roar her baby earth side and the power that she had on her hands and knees holding my hands squatting screaming being so powerful being like this would have been my other child's birthday this would have been the day that that happened for me and then being okay with it and like that was I think that experience really healed it for me really healed the loss because I got to witness somebody else bring their baby earthside they've always wanted so then just being pregnant with Bruin was a lot of back and forth because he was a very large baby as well so they were like does she have gestational diabetes no she doesn't she have this no she doesn't is she losing the baby was it twins because that was a conversation because of bleeding in the beginning and I'm like I don't know and then he came out a whole 10 pounds four ounces on fire and I had a midwife and she was wonderful because we checked into the hospital because I had had a C-section with the first child and had a walking epidural that never worked and everything wrong you can think of in a hospital birth happened to a second one where she's like check in and go for lunch I didn't even stay at the hospital I just checked in and I was like let's go Jesse let's go for lunch I don't need to stay here she said we can go and so like being strapped to a bed with monitors and being scared and everything in my first delivery and pushing a baby like on my hands and knees pushing and being told oh by the way that's his shoulder not his head that was the conversation about Parker to Bruin who was like she was like okay just don't push it too hard and you don't want him to come out too fast and he was like out like like polar opposite births right this one was filled with students poking and prodding me and trying to touch every part of me and wanting to know because I have endometriosis that's interesting and she's pregnant two my Midwife being like go walk the hallways go away get like leave go for a walk outside come back later I'm really grateful I had both but I had very very scary and very like textbook calm realistic birth right and so when Haley was born what was that experience for you like how did you feel and how were how did it go um her birth is my favorite I know it is

her like being in labor with her I felt I think like the the best I've ever felt like I felt the most like myself

um it sounds really kind of weird to say but like a lot of goddess energy and just like not being inhibited by the birthing process um I did a hypnobirth with her and I and I absolutely loved it um for how rough I felt emotionally with my pregnancy versus how Serene and empowered I felt giving birth to her um I don't I don't know why there was such a difference but it her birth went so smooth and perfect and she I mean she was born into a room full of love and I think it's interesting because her personalities a lot kind of mimics that labor how I felt and I think that's kind of interesting too and for me like with like with his birth Bruins same thing it was so calm and it was so different and I felt so in control and I didn't have to be like get me the hell off my back because I never had to go there I just got to stand and be me and I sat on toilets and there was no nurses if a nurse came in the Midwife was like get out like it was just me and my husband and the Midwife and me bringing my child down into Earth like that it was all that's all I could think about and we had one moment where I had a cervical lip like it was swollen my cervix and so she goes I know you're doing this unmedicated but I gotta put my arm up there can you just take some laughing gas and I was like I don't walk down she's like it's gonna hurt just try so I like took it and I'm a cheap date y'all like cheap date so I take it and I was like out cold and my husband told me and I wake up and I'm like please tell me I didn't have my baby yet

it's like two seconds and she's like no it's like okay I didn't want to miss things

right it's like those are the stories I want women to hear of like the funniness and like I was like a rhythm person I'm a rhythmic person did you find that Jessica too that you were just like you had like a rhythm to you yeah yeah it was it it was fast too like my first one it all my labors were fast compared to yours I know um I was kind of like I think the big joke was that like it was kind of like a nine to five like for all of them kind of a thing um I don't know I hers was just so so beautiful it was like to me it's like that perfect birthing experience where like I gave birth to her in a squatting position which I don't recommend for your pelvic floor yeah but I mean she was born with like her dad holding me and the Midwife on the floor to catch her like it really was a beautiful experience and I remember being shocked that she was 10 pounds just by how easily she came out yeah and um you know I know I was the same way they're like don't push again and then he was like out and on my chest and I was like sorry I couldn't wait the Midwife was like it's okay everything's okay and she's like pushing buttons calling nurses I'm fine yeah but and then they like then we'll get to that part where it's like I had I popped a vessel like on the outside by my vulva all right like on the side and then they start panicking because they're like she's heveraging we told you not to let her deliver because I had a C-section and my Midwife is like pokes her finger on there she's like nah she's fine it'll stop in one second and then it did and but I just remembered like everybody freaking out and I was like she looks at me she's like no it's actually okay like she's like you're good they're like trying to take my baby and I'm like oh hell no I worked hard for this just like half no still sassy of like leave me alone but yeah I know I didn't practice the hypnoa part aspect of it but I very much embodied it in my second birth there was a lot of like a lot of swaying a lot of like tantric breathing a lot of those kind of aspects to it so I understand that like it made a drastic difference I also played music the whole time did you have music in any of your birds no no no yeah I like have songs for each kid that they were born to and it's it means something to me right now and like Bruce was like take me to church by Jose of course it is right like if you meet this little bundle he's like Burly and a wild little cute thing and you're like of course that's your song right yeah but so then what did you try to have your third or was that just like it was gonna happen or um I think my second was like maybe two minutes old and I'm like when's the Third and um everyone else in the room was like okay we just one at a time please no so he we always knew she would be our middle and um I think she was one when I got pregnant with with my third yeah and so that process of getting pregnant and having two little ones I would like you to kind of give me some insight to your life what was that like

um everyone always says that three is like the hardest so I just kind of gave in to the chaos and I think my hardest was having one because I didn't know what to expect and he was kind of like the first baby in a really long time for uh for my family anyway so um and then with having two they were three years apart and I just kind of again gave over to the chaos and I've always just been kind of like of the mind I don't know what to expect so whatever happening is normal and um then with two that were about 21 months apart we just kind of I mean you were there we had pajama Fridays where we would have people come over to the house on Fridays and we would make breakfast and stay in our pajamas all day and we would just we'd spend a lot of time with Alex at her house or she'd be with us and we just kind of raised these kids together with a community of women like-minded women I've actually been really lucky to have a few friends who are like Alex who just they don't mind the dishes or the dirty floors or the pile of laundry that's there and we just let the kids play and have a cup of coffee and we kind of tackled life together and I think that made things so much easier because there was no I never felt judged or like an expectation that I had to have a clean house that I had to have like the certain snacks or I wasn't allowed to put the TV on like we just kind of all were doing the same thing I guess like the expectationless life made it really easy and I was okay to use the excuse that while my kids are little so it doesn't matter if I didn't do laundry today and I also have a husband who's very calm about things he's he's really laid back and if I would spend the whole day at a friend's house with the kids and get home just as he was getting home he was never upset that dinner wasn't made we just kind of rolled with it and I think yeah things easy yeah and like I'm grateful because we gave what we had read to each other like we read these parenting books and these like child birthing and we're like preparing for all these things and then we were brought together and it was like okay we gave each other what our pretty much our families were giving us later on when we had more kids we became family and we are family yeah like there's days where I'm like hey you want to pull the kids out of school we could use like a just a hangout day and I know that you're always down because you understand what the mental health aspect is for our children as much as it is for each other and so sharing like our birth stories and sharing our motherhood together and sharing our losses together have played such a big role for me that it changed everything although I was giving this I was being this person for everybody else I got to share who I wanted and who I needed for myself with you and that's like that means everything I know I'm not gonna make you cry but that does mean everything to me and so knowing that I could call you and be like hey like no judgment here but like what do you think of this the boys feel this especially when they're little it's like and like they come her son comes over her oldest son comes and gives me a big hug and he knows that I'll like poke at him and stuff right and they talk about when we talk about family are they like careful of that Auntie they know that when they're talking about the sassy Auntie it's me that I'm the one to be worried about right and but also you also followed me through my Doula life like I was able to decompress with you and that played a vital role because there I have witnessed every kind of birth we all know it every kind good bad and of not good at all and I've been there and I've helped space for them but in our community I didn't feel the connection to other doulas not because they're not wonderful I just didn't but I had you and I'm really grateful for that there's so many times where people just don't understand unless they've been through it like I remember the first time I told you I saw a a true knot in an umbilical cord which is where there's a knot in the umbilical cord and generally babies don't don't always live past that and I was like you'll never believe it there was two of them I remember sharing that with you powerful things and then like hearing like because you're so passionate about birth and helping other people so I want you to if you feel comfortable to kind of share about how you feel about breastfeeding and how you advocate for other people and kind of why you're so passionate about it now um I don't I don't know what you did um I guess the first time I breastfed in public was at my husband's annual family bowling thing and I remember his two aunts I'm gonna try really hard not to cry while I tell her it's okay yeah um who because I would we were there for like a good four hours or more at the bowling place and I had to breastfeed and I was really really nervous about it and I couldn't get him to latch and there was like no no privacy and my husband's entire family is there and I've known him for like maybe a year and a half at this point and his two aunts they grabbed a couple of like the baby blankets and they boxed me off in a corner and they held the blankets up and I felt so ugh sorry I felt so held in that moment um and to experience like womenhood in such um

like it was just so much love and um I don't think there's that every woman feels like women band together to help her um especially in such a vulnerable um and as natural as it is it is vulnerable to breastfeed your child especially at 21 in front of you know a bunch of family that you don't really know um I think that was a really profound moment for me um sorry I'm like trying that no you're so good you do it no it's good you share that I really that's kind of like the moment where I realized like it's okay to breastfeed in public and it's um you know like it's okay and then the the next time I I breastfed in public was like months later and I realized that the cover was just kind of more it drew more attention than it was worth like I I didn't feel like it was helpful I felt because like the baby's throwing it around you're trying to cover it up and and things get knocked over and and I was in the middle of Starbucks and I was so flustered and I was having coffee with a friend and I was so I'm so thankful like she had her third child when I had my first and she was like how can I help and I was just trying to like hold it together and an elderly man who I I don't know this person he came over and he was like you dropped this and he's like you're doing a good job and he kind of like squeezed my shoulder and I was like okay like I don't know what it is about like just having the okay from like an older generation that's like seeing some stuff just be like it's okay that you're doing this and then from then on I just was kind of like everyone else is just living their lives and I just need to go on with mine and um I mean like we were just talking the other week about how we used to go grocery shopping at Costco together and we would just rest them on top of the cart like where the handle is and we'd be breastfeeding chatting and pulling stuff off shelves like yeah and nobody paid attention nobody said anything to us nobody once ever stopped me and said like you shouldn't be doing this and it wasn't the big deal that I had made it up to be in my head yeah like the biggest thing for me too is like you are so open to ever helping somebody else to the point where like I know that you're the friend who would breastfeed somebody else's child if necessary or donate milk and to know that we have these conversations because I know lots of women who you know they use the milk donation and they use those supports because that is the best option for them because their child has something going on right and you always advocated for that as much as I did and I think when we started to normalize like hey just breastfeeding a baby walking around talking to each other other people normalized it too they were like okay and I remember I had a similar moment where I helped a mom at the old Museum they had a kids play area and she was sitting there and she had tears streaming down her face and she was trying to get her baby to latch and her other kid was playing with the boys and then my oldest runs over at like three and a half he's like are you just trying to get the baby booby milk it's okay you can do it he's like do you want a snack and he like offered her his snack and then she was like then she cried harder because she's like I can't believe your kid is so sweet and I was like but he's seen stuff like he's seen this and he seen the way that we love on other women and we support them in motherhood and birth and everything around it it's like he's seen it and that's the way that we would treat each other so therefore he's going to treat you even if you're a stranger I think that's I think what was so important to me also is having a son like I have two sons and especially for my oldest like he's he's seen me breastfeed two of his siblings and I really I've always felt very supported in every everything that I do by my husband and I really wanted to raise a son who would support his wife and not not book in anything if she wanted to breastfeed and I I think that was like a really conscious Point too was was raising a child who saw me breastfeed who was open about it and and really normalized it I also have two nieces that they're old enough to watch me breastfeed my three kids openly I never well with my first I did hide like in the back room but for two of them I it was just it was very out there and I hope my hope for them is that they feel if they choose to breastfeed that they can do it with confidence knowing it is normal and natural and as you said like with donating breast milk with my third I donated over 300 whatever is it milliliters yeah of breast milk and like I was making enough milk to sustain three children and it feels so good to give that to someone else who for various reasons was unable to but wanted to make that choice for their child and to make that possible it feels good you know to give yeah and also but like we never judged right because with Parker have my firstborn having my c-section having all those complications being like you name it not great like tearing on the inside and then getting him cut out and all those things I could not breastfeed I tried I remember sitting there trying and trying and crying and putting them to my chest and doing skin to skin and telling everybody like it's not working there's something wrong with me but never once having a doctor or anyone advocate for like well maybe a prescription or how can we help you so then I was like breastfeeding to like help us but also giving him a bottle because he would scream the house down I know I'm not sustaining him but there was never any judgment and I think that's the beauty of both me and you it's like we don't care how you feed as long as you feel comfortable feeding and you feel loved and honored by people around you while you're doing it and if you don't then come sit with us on this side of the room because we're going to support you like to sustain you and your happiness and your mental health like what can we do to help you because we have friends who have been through it all right yeah I remember when I switched my daughter I think she was about nine months old when I was like I I can't do this anymore like it's just the way that she breastfed was so different than other boys did like she was constantly breastfeeding and it was it's draining like physically it's draining mentally it's hard when you have a three-year-old and I remember Alex you were like it's okay if you do formula and just hearing that like it's okay like that is best right yeah it doesn't matter how they get that way but it's okay and like because I'd only breastfeed up to that point I was so confused about how to even make a formula bottle and how to leave the house with it like you were a huge support and knowing what to do because I wasn't getting any information from my doctor about how to do that no and I'm really grateful to share that with you and always like support you and to support anybody and I think that's the thing is people realize it's like I'm never going to tell you what's best but I will Advocate till the end of time when you do make a decision I like I got you it's really a shame that whether it's formula feeding or breastfeeding we are so militant about it that we can't have open and honest conversations about it or what could help or what could fix the problem you know I remember with my second being told that breastfeeding was lazy and I'm like no listen I have done both neither way is easy neither way is fun neither way is time one is indeed slightly more cost efficient but only if you are not you know putting all of those calories in your face to sustain the breastfeeding with my second I had to eat so much I think I probably ate more than formula would have cost to write so it's the militancy around having the conversation at all it's so so important to just allow fed to be best and that's fine yeah but also like let's roll back it's like you just gave birth in whatever way you did C-section vaginal birth it doesn't matter how you did it you just gave birth period so now you're rolling into this like this unknown you have stitches you have owies you baby you may not tear it all you may tear front to back we like all aspects one of us in this room has had right so then going forward it's like well now you're supposed to sit in the fourth trimester and take care of yourself did we do that

like I know there's aspects where you did Jessica but I know that if we did not have that like that full fourth trimester love and nourishing it's like were we feeding ourselves properly did we even get told that if we don't feed ourselves properly then we don't produce milk properly we're not drinking enough we feel dehydrated we start like becoming anemic did we talk about how trauma can cause us to not be able to breastfeed because we've had physical trauma in this area so what happens is where our nervous system is actually triggered not because we feel triggered by our baby but because of what it needs it's like how can we bring the fourth trimester back to women they preach about it but it's like we really need to actually bring it back we need to have our village like me and you did sit and have coffee and be like okay well we should probably eat too because we say that to each other it's like a pot of coffee and we're like actually we should probably eat something but women are expected to birth children and then return and bounce back immediately the if the baby check up at six weeks is great you're good to go you're good to have sex yeah and there's no further follow-up on Mom in any way shape or form a six-week checkup and then nothing is a travesty and I remember them like looking at my c-section scarf from my first and being like oh looks good looks great You're great and I'm like yeah but I tore my cervix on the inside too and they're like oh we're not gonna check it you'll be fine it'll heal up did you imagine that happened to a man

that's that right

right and like with my firstborn because we had gone like 55 hours of me and like active labor like in the labor they put a scalp bleed in his head to track him and then what happened is he turned and when it turned it clipped me on the inside and then the student doctor was like I don't see the scalp bleed but that's the head and then the OB comes in and she's like that's the shot and I was like oh good here we go meanwhile I'm like over a squat bar like wondering why my body's failing me why I fought so hard how many losses I've had how am I gonna bring this baby in earth side because come hell or high water it is happening I have got thus far it's he's coming and looking at my husband feeling absolutely exhausted and defeated and not sure what I can do in the OB being like it's okay to tap out now and I was like I don't and she's like like it's our fault you're not able to do this it's not your fault and I remember just crumbling because I was like okay like she's like we can try four more hours she's like but you're like she's like for the best interest of your mental health I'm gonna say let's let's not and I haven't heard of women going that long in the hospital before and they were so they know right like it's not common but I know that they knew that I was like I'm doing this and it just yeah so knowing that they're like oh your seats actually looks good just carry on you can have sex in six weeks the whole inside of me is not good I don't know how we're gonna like accomplish that and then to Bruin who's like no tearing 10 pounds out like butter and she's like you're fine like you're good I was like okay but my Midwife did really advocate for my mental health after she really wanted to make sure that I was good not because of my birth but because of how much loss I've had before that birth that was a conversation that was brought up quite often was how much I had been through before that happened and she looked at me in my birth because my second birth was only eight hours it was not very long start to finish water broke eight hours later and I remember I was like eight centimeters and she could see the blue line on my butt crack which means I'm dilating and babies coming down and she said you need to let this [ __ ] go she's like I need you to yell at me I need you to get mad I need you to let it all go you need to be sad for all the loss you need to scream about your C-section you need to get really mad and I just like lost it I'm pretty sure everybody heard me we went into the employee hallway in the hospital and I just raged I raged in a way I have never felt so Primal so like determined that I was going to let it go to become something beautiful and it did and I know you've had those moments too where it's like okay I'm going to surrender right and uh in birth that moment of like that Peak moments were like nope I give up I'm not doing this I'm done and then it's like our Primal like takes over after that because that's when your baby is coming your baby is coming earthside and coming to join but you're like on the cusp of it you're like no I don't want to and every time I hear a woman say no I'm done I give up I'm done here I'm like the baby's gonna be here in the next hour that's that's you rolling into your fear and so do you have like any thoughts on that like do you have any stories about that I think every labor brings a trial for you and it's some kind of like you said like it's a fear or some kind of a like something blocking you usually comes to the Forefront and especially with my boys I had um I remember feeling like scared but um also feeling incredibly alone for both of their labors and that and just a sense of knowing that I was the only one that could get me through it and just kind of like at when I look back and I think on that I was at a point in my life where feeling alone was utterly terrifying to me but also knowing that I was in a space with both of my when I was pregnant with both my boys where I did have a lot of fear going through and that I was the only one that could get me out and then experiencing that in labor and then coming through it and then you kind of like have like I guess like a big Epiphany and realization that like you're stronger than you thought you were yeah and you can do it and you know just kind of re solidifies like that um that's Inner Strength that you that you really do possess and have within yourself yeah and like standing on that bridge that like ring of fire right before they're coming out knowing that like that is the bridge between there and now that spot for me is unlike any other feeling I've had in my whole life it is did you find it comforting yes okay because people told me to push into the burn and I was like it actually feels good like it's comforting I feel good here I feel strong it's like that one moment before where you're like when they come out they're breathing you know this this is right and for me it was super healing because it was like all these babies that I wanted and I always dreamed about and I fought so hard to try and have and now we are like one push away from that and I call it the bridge we talk about it it's like standing on the bridge waiting for that one step to here and right there feels comfortable

yeah because you know it's like you're almost there right yeah and did you ever have that moment here you ever have that moment your baby's head did you have that experience I did uh with my third I had a water birth with him which is like I wanted that with all of them but I finally got it with him and um yeah so I was in the water he was crowning and I had a doula a midwife and my husband in the room and nobody in the room knew that he was crowning except me and um then the deal was like what are you doing there and then she was like oh he's he's coming out the head's halfway out and then everyone kind of jumped too but um yeah it was like a it's interesting to like kind of feel like what's going on down there because everything's so different when you're obviously pushing a baby out yeah and like for me it was like I had that moment where I had to take the laughing gas and then I thought he was born magically in two seconds that I fell asleep and then it was like that moment she was like well he's calming down like when you're ready and I like I remember my husband grabbing my hand putting it down there and he's like your baby has dark hair like you and I was like howdy goes because that was it I it was just like an immediate reaction right because I was so excited and I was so inspired by just that little bit and so I got to feel him coming out like I'm the one you know we push babies out but when we're catching our own babies are feeling them on the way out too it's just a different experience it's so different

so do you feel like because now you've had three and you've had three very different births and you've had three very different postpartum do you feel like you are more anxious during your pregnancy or after

probably after mm-hmm mine was during my like I still have I call it like mother anxiety it comes up I think of like oh they're gonna hurt themselves well I have three sons of course they are but like and I don't think of like they're going to hurt themselves in a catastrophic way it's like they're gonna hurt themselves and I'm not gonna be there for them right away because that's a flashback of my own childhood stuff not because just because of what it is right so it's like I have to parent out of my own way I call it like I have to pair it outside of my own childhood experiences and outside of my own trauma so for me I was blue after having my second very like sad I remember sitting breastfeeding and being like am I ever gonna be happy again is this okay I love you guys I wanted you so bad but being so so sad because I felt alone because I I was just alone in that moment whereas after P my oldest Parker I feel like because we were so busy and we were so with each other and stuff we were after Bruin too but it was just he had a week where we were in the hospital and I think that sent me really bad into postpartum depression if I'm if I reflect on it now um and then having the third through adoption sent me into another kind of little Hill of depression because it doesn't get easier just because they're a grown kid you still are learning you're still understanding you still go through a fourth trimester and a lion period is what I call it because we adopted a son who has the emotional maturity of like a two-year-old because he was not loved in the way he deserves so it's lots of like touching and lots of back to like rocking and chest on my head and like it's a flashback of going back to skin to skin with kids right so it's very interesting how much they correlate even though they are very different we did go through a third birth it was just different

foreign okay I'm just I'm trying to not say too much but um I I do remember like having conversations with you about like after he came to to be with you guys and um like I know I know we wanted to give you the space to kind of to bond and I think that's so important like when you bring any child home whether that's through adoption or like through your own birth that you really have that time of one-on-one just that immediate family to bond and um and then I do remember you when you're finally ready and we we met Luke and

I I don't know like he's just so meant to be with you guys and I know it's been challenging um but I think it's kind of funny how similar my three kids are with your three kids and how in different ways and they kind of like mix and match every once in a while who's doing what it seems like but it seems like we have I don't like I guess we're we're fortunate to have each other the children that we have and to see like where Luke is with you right now and I hope you can see that like there's another side to it and you're so on the road to it

and I appreciate you for saying that and I know it's been like it's it's something people don't talk about we always talk about how great it is and it is but we also need to understand that it's a little person who comes with a lot of stuff that's hurt and it's a lot of mirroring for me it's mirroring things and then in a beautiful spiritual way he would be the child that I lost his birthday would correlate to a date of the child I lost and he was always meant to be part of our family and I'm grateful for that so even when it's hard

but I really appreciate you joining today sorry Brian no thanks for having me so great so great I'm so glad that we could have this conversation Jessica where can people find you

um anywhere I don't know do we want to be found oh I haven't really thought about it um I'm not on Facebook or any social media I kind of took a big Hiatus from all that a few years ago and I've just been really enjoying like the extra time that I have to devote to my family is without being on social media um good for you Alex has Alex has my contact information if anybody wants to reach out I think the best way would probably be through Alex

if that's okay yeah absolutely okay and I have so next time Alex we're doing the really fun one right

in two weeks we will be talking about infant loss so you know great stuff it's hard all of this is hard tomorrow I am hosting a workshop with the fabulous Maurice lowen we were talking about creating communities and I bring it up because what the two of you have built for yourselves here is really truly remarkable and I hope you recognize how powerfully significant it is not just in your lives but in your children's lives they've got family of choice and this is such a difficult thing for people to find and build and acquire in their lives right now so Marisa and I are going to be talking tomorrow at 4 P.M Eastern please join us if this is something you desire if you look at this and go [ __ ] well I want that please come sit with us so that we can talk about how you go about building physical structural communities so that they are available in times like this when we need that structural support

Alex this show is so great I'm just so delighted that you have been my media guinea pig and I'm super excited for the rest of this series The Next Episode is going to be hard we'll have lots of warnings around it yeah and also it's really an important conversation for us to have we're not talking about pregnancy we definitely don't talk about loss so be aware that that's what's coming and if you have room in your heart for it we would love to see you back here in two weeks thank you all so much for being here you are both a joy and a delight this has been so great today and y'all we'll talk to you again real soon bye now bye