0:00:02 - Briar
Hello everyone, welcome. I am Briar Harvey. This is the Neurodiversity Media Network. We are here I just want to be very clear in real life, with real children running amok today. So running amok, we are going to be as long as we need to be and truly it's a bait and switch anyway. So I've been telling people that today, I've been telling people that we're going to talk about how to create community in large organizations, and I do believe that Faith has a few things in that regard, but mostly what she has is a very long statement about how to create community in large organizations. And that's not your fucking responsibility And it's not anyone's job to make things easier for the systems of power in the workplace. So, on that note, listen, it's not our jobs. It's not our jobs to make things easier for the system.
0:01:26 - Faith
It's not our jobs. It's not our jobs, it's our culture. Better, it's just not. The thing is that I hate to be reductive, so when I think it's not our jobs, i'm like being alive and being good humans is everybody's job. What we don't want to do is to stack the game, to change the rigged game, and I think part of this has to be the collective understanding that the game is rigged and the collective ownership of the shift, knowing fully well that some people are on the other side of the rigging. There are some people who don't experience the game as rigged because it works in their favor. If you're gambling and you're, the house wins if you're in a casino. So if the house wins, the house isn't like there. I'm strategizing how to not win.
0:02:22 - Briar
Right, it works great for the house, it's fine.
0:02:26 - Faith
So I think a lot of this has to be. There are absolutely ways that when everybody is in agreement that we want to do something different, then there are some practical things that everybody and anybody can do. But we have to own that. It's an act of revolution, right, and that means that it's risky for the people for whom the game is rigged against. It is going to cost them more to advocate for something that isn't going to happen. Naturally, you have to break the system to make happen.
So that's the tradeoff here, and so I think when we are in the work spaces where we know this is the thing that needs to happen, and the powers that be say we agree, this is what happens and you have some reasonable sense of they really want to make this happen, it still is risky to stick your neck out and try to make it happen, because this is, this is like was it the pig and the chicken? somebody's laying eggs, somebody's given their life? you know so. So this is your bread and butter, this is your rent and mortgage, this is your children's food, and it would be foolish to not just own that. You could be out there revolutionary and lose fundamental things for yourself and your family.
0:03:58 - Briar
And we are not advocating for that. We are not advocating that the revolution has to be led by the people who are most likely to suffer the consequences for it. That's just the way that happens, not the way that that should happen.
0:04:23 - Faith
And I think that there, for everything, there's a tipping point, and the tipping point when the the number of people advocating for it gets more than halfway See what's happening downstairs okay, gets to more than halfway and that means that the minority that's advocating kind of that grows and grows, and grows. So it means that there are people in privilege and power who need to come alongside whatever this point of view is, who have to say no to the rigging and acknowledge that they're going to lose something to gain something else. And that's the only way it really happens that that more people kind of join the mass and that that quorum becomes bigger and stronger. But yeah, but yes, no, no, giving up. Like children must eat food and go to school and do other things.
0:05:14 - Briar
I've told people that I'll help the educational system after when some of my kids and that's what I did Right, And I think that when this is really easy in the abstract, when we are talking to small business owners who aren't building anything more than what it is, they need to fulfill their own livelihoods This is a much different game when we're talking to people who are employed for someone else and whose entire world rests on meeting those obligations.
0:05:59 - Faith
Yep, absolutely, absolutely. And I think for those people it's important to just acknowledge and maybe assess where there's space in the organization for change. And when I say space, i mean who is the person, the potential I hate the word ally, not hate, but you know, we all think different things. But, like, where is the little bit of room that can, without harm to you, you can like influence? Is it that there exists? they already exist in affinity group? Is there?
HR has been trying bunches of things over and over again. You keep seeing the same trainings come through. Is it that, like, where's the little wormhole that we can step into and say, okay, can we spread this out a little bit more? And I think that if we can't find that, and when you think about building community, building healthy community, at work it feels all kinds of burdensome, all kinds of stressful and you feel fear. It probably is a good indication that this is not don't do this. Then you know. But if you feel like there's space to do something, i think that there's a couple of things to consider and the first thing is this why, why would you do anything? you know, and I think, even the most introverted of us, even the most lone ranger of us acknowledge that we need our community, like even if it's community to be silent with us. We need our community And I can't forget the whichever story it was I don't even like I'm probably quoting the research completely wrong where they tortured the monkey in the cage not tortured, but you know, they stressed them out loud sounds and all kinds of things and then a blood drawn took the cortisol level and cortisol was like high.
And then they brought in a second monkey and then they stressed them out and they did the blood draw and the cortisol level was half. There's something about environmental stressors that the environmental stressors don't have to change. They should change, they should stop it with these environmental stressors. But in terms of us and our own well-being, environmental stressors don't have to change if we have community, if we have the right kind of people around us, like even Bruce Perry's research on trauma said that the one thing that mitigated the effect of trauma over the lifespan is quality relationships. So and I am like, i'm a big fan of can we get these relationships at work? I mean, we're spending, you know, the large chunk of the day there anyway. So that's, how do we build something like that at work. Drop our blood pressure, drop the cortisol, get the kidneys not being overworked while we're sitting down every single day.
0:08:40 - Briar
But that does require some vulnerability on my part, if that's not the corporate culture. And in many cases, especially when we are talking about our people here, if I am autistic and reaching out to somebody at work, i may misinterpret signs.
0:09:06 - Faith
And then what I mean you may misinterpret signs, they may misinterpret signs. The whole thing about culture is that culture is a. It's a mechanism of meaning making, it's a way that we figure out what we each mean. And if we haven't done any work to kind of redefine those mechanisms, then of course we're going to get misinterpreted. We're going to be like all of those old things are going to be showing up in the system, yeah, and that's going to hurt, that's going to definitely going to be a big risk. And so I think that if we want to practice any of these kinds of community things, so I say, show up where there is space.
If there exists a space where you're not as likely to be misunderstood, that's the space to play. If there exists a space where, if we already have lunch and learns, then is there a way to have a lunch and learn specific to either a topic or process or even activity that you want to do with people that you enjoy. Because more than likely, if you say we're going to have a lunch and learn on handling sensory overwhelm, then the people who show up in the room are likely to be people who are like these are my people, right, and so, for me, i'm always looking at the system. Where are the kind of existing system spaces where we can be like we're my people that I actually feel some amount of safety with already? And then how do we practice some bravery in those spaces? How do we push the boundaries out a little bit more? Some educators and who are they? Other people have defined this idea of a brave space and I like it as a way of defining being willing to be in a space with people not prioritizing comfort but prioritizing instead listening really well, prioritizing mindfulness, prioritizing honesty and reflecting each other, like reflecting to each other.
And if we can have already a little cluster of people that we want to practice that with, then we can say, hey, once a month, why don't we get together? These are our agreements with each other. This is Vegas. What happens here stays here, you know, and you can have it closed or open. You can say every week we're having this thing. If you want to come, just know you're applying, you're abiding by these rules. Or you can say, no, you have to apply, we have to vet you first, whatever it is, but there's an opportunity to practice this. Let's be two monkeys in the cage In a place where we can be our full selves, because a lot of what happens at work, we have to be this kind of stripped down version of ourselves and do the work, and no stripped down version of faith can do the work that you're asking faith to do.
0:11:54 - Briar
That's correct, which is why dangerous spaces in work is so antithetical to the product we're trying to obtain. It's this one's hard for me, because I see so clearly that if we just fixed some of these things, we would be getting the productivity we're complaining about not having.
0:12:22 - Faith
Right. And yet, because we don't know, like this idea of dangerous space, it's just dangerous to the person. That's dangerous for Right. It's not dangerous for the other person, right? no, just like. This is just normal, right? So there's the vulnerability of holding this, like letting yourself be so vulnerable and being in a space with another person that has to let themselves be vulnerable, to be the person who's perpetuating the problem, like that's. It's the mutual vulnerability as needed to make this happen. It's gonna feel massively uncomfortable. I've told you the story about what my kids told me about cutting down the tree in the yard. Have I, have? I?
0:13:02 - Briar
No, I don't think we've talked about.
0:13:04 - Faith
Discussing none of the tree. So, like my daughter came and said what happened to the tree. You know the gardener had come and said this tree's dead. so close to the house, you know the roof and all the things. I saw the money And I was like absolutely, cut this tree down.
And when the tree was gone, my daughter said how come you cut the tree down? And I was explaining what happened And she said but you didn't discuss it with us first. You're hardly in the yard, you're not. You know, you don't experience the yard. So how, how come you're making that decision to just cut the tree down? So we're in this moment where she's actually willing to be her vulnerable self and express this thing to me as the person in power. So then I'm me as a person in power. What's, what's the thing I need to do? So I was like the tree needed to go down, as far as I was concerned, because of the roof, the roof. But I had to hear this thing. She was like you didn't give me any voice in the conversation around something that you don't even experience. So then I had to be that person that said I'm really, really sorry about that. I didn't think about that at all And it makes perfect sense. I'm so sorry, this is what was going on and this is why I did it, but I hear what you're saying And the next time I'm going to you know whatever, and then, of course, right after So then we had a whole big meeting around the other tree And then and I'm like, so there's, there's me being vulnerable enough to say I made a mistake.
I get what that could feel like and not say how dare you? I am protecting your life, you know what I mean And getting all defensive, and I think that that that's a leadership skill that must be in place, like I can hear what you're saying outside of the words that you're saying, which is that you didn't have voice in a moment when you needed to have had voice, that I didn't check in with you at all, so that vulnerability on both sides is critical. Otherwise, this isn't going to work. But I think that if we're able because there are lots of spaces where we can be with our people and be less vulnerable and the leadership stays where they are this is not going to create sustainable change, but it will provide us with the monkey and the cage, in a sense, where we are with our people and that brings our cortisol down and that nourishes us enough and that gives us courage so that we don't have to recover from work, because I think that's really, really important, even if leadership continues to be ridiculous.
We have to I shouldn't be calling leadership ridiculous, but ridiculous. We have to provide ourselves with our security blanket within the workplace so that we can, so that the cost of work is not as high as it is, because the cost is right now just too high And businesses are seeing that with the turnover and stuff. But humans are seeing it because many people kind of work to leave Right. So children are seeing it, relationships are seeing it. It's everywhere.
0:16:09 - Briar
And it's cyclical right. If I don't have enough courage to feel brave in my job, i'm certainly not going to feel brave enough to look for a different job. I'm certainly not going to feel brave enough to do things in the rest of my life because I feel so much deep seated anxiety around my work. It's and truly it's the place where people get stuck.
0:16:43 - Faith
The cycle can be weird too. Right, because it can also be. You're so. You've moved in your boundaries so much at work. Right, because you feel like you have no power, so you keep shifting them, and there's no. They're encroaching everywhere, and so you become overbounded. At home, you become rigid and hyper controlling with your kids or with your partner or with whatever the other spaces are, and none of that creates like a society that feels healthy for us, because that tight control is just brittle to breaking, and so that's the. Yeah, it's like it has to be healed, because this process is not sustainable, and I am I'm a big advocate of this. Burn the whole thing down, and I understand that we can't. There are too many people in the ship to burn it down, so we must be in processes of steering this thing away from the rapids.
0:17:44 - Briar
Right. I mean and that's what it comes down to There is so much here that needs to be thrown away entirely and just rebuilt from scratch. I know we both agree on education is one of those things, but most of the corporate structure needs to go to, and yet how do you redo that without affecting the people who are in the system now?
0:18:13 - Faith
You can't not affect them, but you can be mindful of how we're affecting them and be thoughtful about that. It requires a top down and bottom up approach, because if we're not addressing, like we've talked about, what happens in the micro communities and empowering micro communities to be healthy, like if we can't make four people healthy, no way, 2,000 people, right, it's not going to work out. But we have to kind of have the umbrella idea about these 2,000 people and then be figuring out what needs to happen in these small pockets, whether that's about changing our leave policies or vacation policies so that people can have community. It's like this is not you know, or even you know. I was thinking about it today.
We know that relationships at work are cut down on things like conflict and silos and makes the workflow better. We know this, but people don't have time to talk to each other, and especially now that we've gone into the hybrid work type of situation, although we want people back in the office, it's all weird and I'm not even going to weigh into that. So people used to do this by water coolers, in restrooms, in elevators, right, we're catching these moments to kind of co-regulate with each other. But now, when? when are we doing that? Because we'd have to do it outside of work And so for something that's essential to work to be happening outside of work, you're making that the responsibility of the people to do outside of the job, whereas I'm like put it in the workflow. It has to be in the work day. It should absolutely be in the workflow 9 to 9.30, go walk I mean you don't want to call it walk and look at the water cooler and talk to people. But in essence, if relationship at the thing briar, i should finish my sentences.
But the thing, briar, is that people at the top of the ladder know this is important, so they put in their work day. Play golf with so and so, right, that's in their work day, but I'm not allowed to have it in my work day. So they acknowledge it at its importance. And part of this means it needs to be in the work day for people to be able to connect with each other, to be able to understand each other, co-regulate with each other and figure out what does briar mean. When briar says or doesn't say, when briar gets up halfway through the meeting, what does that mean? We need time with each other to figure that out And it shouldn't be go time when we're like, okay, no, we would actually, the event is coming. That's not when we figure that out.
0:20:50 - Briar
No, because it's too late at that point in time.
0:20:53 - Faith
Too risky now, right, yeah, that's so.
0:20:57 - Briar
So okay, if structurally it does not feel safe to build in micro relationships that will reduce your cortisol. what do we do then?
0:21:18 - Faith
Therapy.
0:21:22 - Briar
I mean, I'm hard pressed to argue with you here.
0:21:26 - Faith
Yeah, you know, cbd, i think that there are whoever, wherever in your relationship structure, there are people with power and privilege. As much as possible, express this to them so that for somebody else I have a thing about, for the sake of who? I agree that this is expensive for me, but I'm always thinking about my kids coming into this space. So I might be leaving or I might not be able to be coping, but I'm like, for somebody's sake, i'm gonna advocate for this. So if there is a person that I can just like, hey, listen, this is not sustainable. This is why marriage is left right And I'm gonna talk about it as much as it feels safe. That's number one And number two let's build this community outside, then, for your own sake, because of the way the work structure is, many of us don't feel like we have time, but I would be like, let's make the time in some way.
I way back in the day in my history. I'm going to work in a corporate which is just like 30 years ago. Oh, my goodness, me and a friend from two different organizations that were in the same building. We just met up at 12, 15 on the stairs And two black women from Jamaica walked together over to the place, bought the food, walked back over and we nourished each other. And I think this is we used to do this because it was convenient. Now we have to do it because it's essential.
Correct Is there is whether it's a lunch or whether it's like okay, is there a stop on the way to work, on the way back from work, like what's the way? these? building of communities of support outside of work is even more essential if we're not, if the work is not nourishing in many ways, and lots of minority groups not lots of marginalized groups already know this and have affinity groups that they participate in And I think that idea, even if you can't find an established group, form one up of your own. I have a friend who has a group of colleagues from different organizations that she's just been with for 10 years And every twice a year they meet up somewhere and they are together. I think that's important for your professional development and your heart nourishment And hopefully somebody in the organization will pay attention.
0:23:51 - Briar
Right, like the goal of, or not the goal, but at least one of the objectives of an affinity group should be to bring to the attention of people in power that that's required, that these people together feel a type of way that is not being heard and acknowledged.
0:24:20 - Faith
That the nourishment that people get from being together is essential, talking about things that matter to them. That may not have anything directly to do with a specific project that's going on because people are people, that's. You know, it's like we don't. It doesn't have to be specific to the actual project. In fact, the project might go faster.
0:24:42 - Briar
Well see, and that's what it always comes down to For me, every time I hear that this is extraneous, i'm like well, actually, if you just let it happen organically, everything else will move so much faster.
0:25:02 - Faith
If you actually look at how people have worked together in before, we had the quote unquote office type structures like who is stopping people on a farm in a cane field except for when they were slaves, slave masters stopping the slave But like when people are working organically in the ways they worked, no one policed the conversation. So I am working and I am dialoguing. When you look at how women traditionally the maternal caregivers or whoever it is that's handling the stuff quote unquote at home, that the huddle that's created, children and all kinds and everybody is working and dialoguing Like this becomes completely missing because we're supposed to be only on topic. So like that communion, that kind of sharing, that kind of shared attention around the problems that I face, then we were stripping that completely away And then expecting people.
So people didn't say to me and this feels always feels uncomfortable when people say this to me like how do I make the meetings productive, cause it could run off down the road of somebody's thing. And I honestly feel I mean I try to be practical for that person in their needs but I honestly feel it runs off because it's not the norm. If people knew that they could express their stuff and it is safe to do so. We wouldn't have people running off right, it would just be normal. It's like when the kid is just eating, gorging on candy, but then when you kind of make it okay for people to choose their food, then they just eat the right amounts, hopefully, please.
0:26:45 - Briar
You know, i was reading a thread earlier today that was talking about the ways that when rich people do something, it's seen a certain type of way versus when poor and or marginalized groups do something. And truly networking is one of those things. It's absolutely essential when people in power get together and network, but if the rest of us do it, we're just interfering with productivity. Yeah, yeah, how do we make that need clearer to the people in power?
0:27:34 - Faith
I do think that there's a bunch of education that's needed where that's concerned, but not education like workshops as much as like a real tuning in to what humans need. And so I challenge HR and I challenge whoever's doing training, learning and development and all this stuff. What are the actual things Like? if we're training people on Excel, if we're training leaders on I don't know what are the different leadership approaches, a lot of this now is like what do humans actually need? Because we have it wrong and we need to acknowledge that we have it wrong.
We've basically been saying to humans don't be human for a really, really long time, for a long time, and so I do think that it's an awareness piece and then there's an accountability piece to it. Like we're holding what's the name of that ethics organization. There's a large ethics entity that people submit their stuff to. They rank organizations according to their how much they're living up to the ethical standards. I think that needs to be in there as well. Like the whole set the perception of wellbeing, which is a really complex thing. Are we measuring that And are we saying across our organization these four things of wellbeing? how are we doing with that for our organizations, for our people within our organizations. It needs to be. People need to be held accountable for that.
0:28:56 - Briar
People do need to be held accountable. So I think that's the last question What can we do at an individual level to start holding the system more accountable?
0:29:11 - Faith
I think that if we are back to the communities because it takes courage to do some of this work if within our communities we feel we have the courage to take small steps, we could decide together on what those small steps are and take them. So, for example, one of the steps that I think is important is to not qualify what sick means. Like if you have 10 sick days to take and you are depressed this morning, you are overwhelmed today, you are like this whole. If you have COVID, you can take time, but if you have sensory overwhelm you can't take time. Then nobody needs to know what sick is, and I think that. But we have to know that we can take that time for ourselves, whatever those things are, similarly for our children or for whatever else is going on.
So I think there are steps like that, that how do we make space, like when people invite us into work that's not ours, How do we have those conversations and say you know, i know that's not, or is there more time? or moving the deadlines? There's a way that we've been compliant around some of the things that are infractions and encroachment And, i think, pushing back on it and then, when there's space to do so, explaining giving the time, like I had a couple of conversations with some leaders about the living wage And it's like it's not just like for a person with multiple children from a marginalized identity. This is how it's experienced is different, and so then, being just, here's a link to MIT's thing I'm not saying anything about what you're paying me, although I am, but I do think you want to think about this because we have this situation that's happening revolving door and so on, you know, and so, just like, what's the data that's already out there And how can we share that as is relevant?
I remember going to work Reddit was very, very strong. I was a share. I was like here, take a look at this. That might there might be some ideas here when we're thinking about hiring in the future, and their idea is also about the current workforce. But let's even you know so, when we see problems in our work spaces, we can say, here, take a look at this. Here, take a look at that.
0:31:41 - Briar
Yeah, i think it's cultivating curiosity, and that is the most that we can do on an institutional level. If you are not the leader of the institution, then the best that you can ask for is that people will be curious when you offer information.
0:32:00 - Faith
Yeah, and being okay with the fact that, because we worry about will they be curious or will they be upset, and we can't control whether they're upset or not that they're discomfort there is no way in this work to prevent people from being uncomfortable. So it's like we hope they'll be curious but we're okay with their discomfort. Again, as long as we're not in jeopardy and like cause. You know, powerful people discomfort. They can. You know it can cause us to not be safe, but it's okay for them to feel discomfort and hope that that also has them doing some inquiry.
0:32:38 - Briar
You know, i think the farther along I come through this work, the more I realize that it is about creating discomfort and that more people need to be okay with it. It's not always going to be comfortable. This work is not comfortable, but the more that I sit with those points of discomfort for me, the more I'm like oh well, maybe that's the thing I need to think about.
0:33:08 - Faith
Yeah, there's a nudge there in the discomfort And if we can just interrogate it like hmm, i mean, first of all get yourself back to the place of being regulated And then like what was that about? What was going on there for me, what was I thinking? that person meant, what was I like? and just get into your stuff underneath. If more of us could do that oh, i think they think I'm a bad person or whatever it is then you could heal that and then go back into the situations. So Okay.
0:33:37 - Briar
So obviously we want leaders and organizations to do more of this work with you. Where do they find you to do that Faith?
0:33:49 - Faith
They find me at faithclarkcom. I think that the faith at clarkcom or faith at faithclarkcom, my email And for the show notes at some point I'm going to give you the website for the landing page for the culture assessment. It talks about some of this stuff Fabulous. Fundamentally, we want our organizations to have the empower, people with capacity to co-create culture. Like it's not done for me. Without me That's not going to work. It can't be that you think ahead about what the ideal anti-capitalist or the ideal restorative. It has to be that I work with you. I meaning the person in the organization, like all the people on the ground, right, but if we can empower people with capacity to co-create culture, then the thing we co-create will be reflective of the actual humans on the ground, and that's just the place to start.
0:34:48 - Briar
And really y'all. That's the work. It's about creating the communities in which you yourself are sustained. And it's hard, i know, building a whole median network from scratch over here, because I didn't like the way that media prioritized people who didn't necessarily have access. So now we build this whole organization where people get to come in and then They get to say what they need to say and then we give them assets and everybody wins. But what I know is that I built this community this way because nothing else I saw was working, and that's what it takes. We have to truly be able to implement or start over if the institutions aren't working the way that we want them to be working.
0:35:50 - Faith
Yeah, i think even within larger entities, this model that you just described is what's needed. Like you probably have a nonprofit or a corporate entity or a small business but you have a new product coming out And if you have that new product, you could test a whole new way of doing business, like let the things that are bringing in your money bringing in your money and leave those things stable until you figure some stuff out. But if you have to hire two new people and figure out a new whole thing and a different financial whatever for one product that you don't even know is successful yet, it's a great place to test Right, be going out some new ways of being And then expanding that into your business as you understand it more.
0:36:33 - Briar
You can do that Right, because, at the end of the day, it's not about what you're doing, it's about what you're being together, individually, as a company. It's about what you're being, and we're gonna leave it right there. So what do we do next time? Faith.
0:36:49 - Faith
I don't know. I have to go check.
0:36:51 - Briar
Oh well, we're gonna have to check our notes and it'll be a surprise.
0:36:55 - Faith
I think we're gonna talk about. What does it look like when we've done this well? I think we should go into the future. What does it look like when we've done this well on our teams and in our organizations?
0:37:07 - Briar
Okay, all right, i'm very excited What it looks like. So few people really truly are doing it well, so we can give you some sterling examples and talk about how it can look. And yeah, that'll be amazing. All right, y'all. Thank you so much for being here. Faith, as always, you are wonderful. We will be back here next time to talk about what organizations can look like, and if you wanna see how you fit into my ecosystem, i would love to have you join us for a masterclass. You can find out more information about that at briarharveycom slash partners And you can subscribe to the network at neurodiversitymediannetworkcom. Thanks y'all.
Transcribed by https://podium.page
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